PAL to NTSC, NTSC to PAL framerate conversion?

[AlecWest]

But you didn't answer fritzi93's question. If telecined film, they can be IVTC'd back to 23.976fps before the PAL conversion, for much better results. If you don't know how to answer the question, or don't understand the question, then it's in your best interests to learn. Just know that if converting 29.97->25fps when you could be converting 23.976->25fps, you are unnecessarily ruining your videos.

Fair enough. I assumed a different definition to "telecined." With an MPEG2 file in front of me, how do I tell if it's telecined?

[manono]

Hi-

Open it in something where you can advance a frame at a time without it being deinterlaced. VDubMod can handle it, I think. Scroll to a place with motion/movement. Advance a frame at a time. If, in every 5 frame sequence, you see 3 good progressive frames and 2 nasty-looking interlaced frames, then it has been telecined and can and should be IVTC'd before the conversion. If every frame is interlaced, then it was shot with interlaced 30fps video cameras, wasn't telecined, and can't be IVTC'd. If these are movies we're talking about, then almost certainly the true framerate is 23.976fps.

By the way, you can also open your Procoder encoded PAL MPV, M2V, or VOBs the same way and have a look at the frames one-by-one. Do you like what you see?

[AlecWest]

Hi-

Open it in something where you can advance a frame at a time without it being deinterlaced. VDubMod can handle it, I think. Scroll to a place with motion/movement. Advance a frame at a time. If, in every 5 frame sequence, you see 3 good progressive frames and 2 nasty-looking interlaced frames, then it has been telecined and can and should be IVTC'd before the conversion. If every frame is interlaced, then it was shot with interlaced 30fps video cameras, wasn't telecined, and can't be IVTC'd. If these are movies we're talking about, then almost certainly the true framerate is 23.976fps.

TV captures on my Hauppauge card, 29.97. But, I will try your suggestion. Surely, converting from 23.976 to 25 would take less time and be less messy. Thanks.

By the way, you can also open your Procoder encoded PAL MPV, M2V, or VOBs the same way and have a look at the frames one-by-one. Do you like what you see?

Well ... I can't do it right now. It's busy encoding (grin). But, I do know I like what I see in the end result as it plays.

[klode]

I'm studying for the best Avisynth Script for conversion PAL->NTSC. I've this script that it makes a 29.97 FILM to 23.976 NTSC deinterlaced:

#The commented commands are only for view the difference between filters.

LoadPlugin("AviSynth_C.dll")
LoadCPlugin("SmartDecimate.dll")
dgdecode_mpeg2source("dolby_city.d2v")
ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true)
AssumeTFF()
#GreedyHMA(1,0,4,0,0,0,0,0)
w=doubleweave()
b=dgBob(order=1)
SmartDecimate(24,60,bob=b,weave=w)
TomsMoComp(-1,3,1)
#SmoothDeinterlace(tff=true,lacethresh=10,doublerate=true,blend=true)

Although, this script have yet some little artifacts.

Now, for make a good PAL movie, what can I do?
I think that append this part of script:

[code]
ChangeFPS(50).SelectEven()
LanczosResize(720,576)
[code]

the results is a quite-good PAL solution, except for one doubled frame every xx frames.

Any solution for this one?

[guns1inger]

Assuming the output is an mpeg-2 video stream for DVD authoring;

Solution 1 : encode at 720 x 576 @ 23.976 fps. Use DGPulldown to apply a custom pulldown for 23.976 -> 25 fps. Author and test play. Most players should be happy with this, some may not.

Solution 2 : speed up the framerate to 25 fps, then time and ptch adjust the audio to match the new running time. Author and play.

Solution 3 : Don't bother. The majority of PAL players will happily play NTSC material, and it saves you a lot of work and the unavoidable loss of quality if you don't convert the video unnecessarily.

[Alex_ander]

the results is a quite-good PAL solution, except for one doubled frame every xx frames.
Any solution for this one?

Try this plugin (MVFlowFPS function instead of ChangeFPS):
http://avisynth.org.ru/mvtools/mvtools.html
It interpolates all frames for new framerate.

For 23.976 to interlaced PAL:

LoadPlugin("path\mvtools.dll")
AviSource("video.avi")
source=LanczosResize(720,576)
backward_vec = source.MVAnalyse(isb = true, truemotion=true, pel=2, idx=1)
forward_vec = source.MVAnalyse(isb = false, truemotion=true, pel=2, idx=1)
source.MVFlowFps(backward_vec, forward_vec, num=50, den=1, ml=100, idx=1)
AssumeBFF.DoubleWeave().SelectEvery(4,1)#TFF output

For 23.976 to progressive PAL:

LoadPlugin("path\mvtools.dll")
AviSource("video.avi")
source=LanczosResize(720,576)
backward_vec = source.MVAnalyse(isb = true, truemotion=true, pel=2, idx=1)
forward_vec = source.MVAnalyse(isb = false, truemotion=true, pel=2, idx=1)
source.MVFlowFps(backward_vec, forward_vec, num=25, den=1, ml=100, idx=1)

[sisquo76]

the results is a quite-good PAL solution, except for one doubled frame every xx frames.
Any solution for this one?

Try this plugin (MVFlowFPS function instead of ChangeFPS):
http://avisynth.org.ru/mvtools/mvtools.html
It interpolates all frames for new framerate.

For 23.976 to interlaced PAL:

LoadPlugin("path\mvtools.dll")
AviSource("video.avi")
source=LanczosResize(720,576)
backward_vec = source.MVAnalyse(isb = true, truemotion=true, pel=2, idx=1)
forward_vec = source.MVAnalyse(isb = false, truemotion=true, pel=2, idx=1)
source.MVFlowFps(backward_vec, forward_vec, num=50, den=1, ml=100, idx=1)
AssumeBFF.DoubleWeave().SelectEvery(4,1)#TFF output

For 23.976 to progressive PAL:

LoadPlugin("path\mvtools.dll")
AviSource("video.avi")
source=LanczosResize(720,576)
backward_vec = source.MVAnalyse(isb = true, truemotion=true, pel=2, idx=1)
forward_vec = source.MVAnalyse(isb = false, truemotion=true, pel=2, idx=1)
source.MVFlowFps(backward_vec, forward_vec, num=25, den=1, ml=100, idx=1)

Alex_ander, I think this is pro solution for framerate conversion and thank you very much, this is what I was looking for.

[tsuyoshi85]

the results is a quite-good PAL solution, except for one doubled frame every xx frames.
Any solution for this one?

Try this plugin (MVFlowFPS function instead of ChangeFPS):
http://avisynth.org.ru/mvtools/mvtools.html
It interpolates all frames for new framerate.

For 23.976 to interlaced PAL:

LoadPlugin("path\mvtools.dll")
AviSource("video.avi")
source=LanczosResize(720,576)
backward_vec = source.MVAnalyse(isb = true, truemotion=true, pel=2, idx=1)
forward_vec = source.MVAnalyse(isb = false, truemotion=true, pel=2, idx=1)
source.MVFlowFps(backward_vec, forward_vec, num=50, den=1, ml=100, idx=1)
AssumeBFF.DoubleWeave().SelectEvery(4,1)#TFF output

For 23.976 to progressive PAL:

LoadPlugin("path\mvtools.dll")
AviSource("video.avi")
source=LanczosResize(720,576)
backward_vec = source.MVAnalyse(isb = true, truemotion=true, pel=2, idx=1)
forward_vec = source.MVAnalyse(isb = false, truemotion=true, pel=2, idx=1)
source.MVFlowFps(backward_vec, forward_vec, num=25, den=1, ml=100, idx=1)

Alex_ander, I think this is pro solution for framerate conversion and thank you very much, this is what I was looking for.

I have just tried both of the scripts and unfortunately have to say that never would i have expected such unprofessional results. Original video is literally modified!

If you have a progressive NTSC video (23.976 fps), these are the best solution to me:

If you want a progressive PAL video (the most spread method here in PAL land), apply a speed up (and audio pitch is never to be changed!!! just sped up). Here's the script:

mpeg2source("1.d2v") #if your source is an mpeg2 file
tfm() #in order to get rid of possible interlaced frames left
assumefps(25) #to speed up. (25,true) if you are loading audio and video together. In that case, remember to add this line: SSRC(48000).
lanczos4resize(720,576) # resizes video to full D1 PAL resolution

If you want an interlaced PAL video, in order to preserve the speed (used here by minor home video companies since this method should be avoided indeed), here's the best solution to me:

mpeg2source("1.d2v") #if your source is an mpeg2 file
tfm() #in order to get rid of possible interlaced frames left
lanczos4resize(720,576) # resizes video to full D1 PAL resolution
convertfps(50) #converts framerate to 50 fps, since interlaced PAL is 50 fields per second
separatefields.selectevery(4,0,3) # for bottom field first (usually top is first) change to (4,1,2)
weave
converttoyuy2(interlaced=true)

Let me know what you think.

[johnsees]

If you don't mind the "jutters" here's the easiest method in the world!
Open your IFO files in IFOEdit, change every instance of PAL to NTSC and save the files then burn your disk.
Works like a champ!
I found this on a site called club.myce.com.

[victoriabears]

I am always baffled by anyones desire to convert ntsc <> pal when a dvd player will do it for you, maintains menus and plays it exactly as if it were original, I have a large PAL collection in NTSC land and would never convert, why do it?

You could always easilly convert your original file to divx then any moddern dvd player will play it.

[johnsees]

I am always baffled by anyones desire to convert ntsc <> pal when a dvd player will do it for you, maintains menus and plays it exactly as if it were original, I have a large PAL collection in NTSC land and would never convert, why do it?

My dvd player won't do that. Would you like to send me the new dvd player, or just the money so I can buy it for myself?

You could always easilly convert your original file to divx then any moddern dvd player will play it.

The "original file" is about 30 files making up a dvd. Where can I find step-by-step instructions for converting them to divx and playing them on my dvd player?

[victoriabears]

well it depends on how you value your time $60-$80 for a new dvd player or all this techno farting around.

The first posting I see is Baldrick pointing out some stuff, what is the sourec for this project,, 1 dvd ?

[Alex_ander]

I have just tried both of the scripts and unfortunately have to say that never would i have expected such unprofessional results. Original video is literally modified!

Did you expect to keep unmodified frames along with interpolated ones? That's impossible if smooth motion is planned within unmodified length.
Another case is if you get artifacts with some type of material (e.f. fiddlesticks or drums) or apply it to 12 fps from still camera. I should have warned about that potential problem, sorry.
As for what professionals use. It's usually a bad idea to modify audio length of a musical video program (while it's OK for a fiction movie), even with pitch correction. So many contemporary film-sourced PAL music DVDs are not kept progressive (at such a cost). Along with pulldown and field-blending for producing new frames, newer methods based on interpolation (hardware, Alchemist is the most known) are used, more often - in TV program exchange than for DVD production. I have an example of a music DVD on my shelf (Procol Harum on German TV), produced by conversion of original interlaced PAL to interlaced NTSC. Frame analysis doesn't show traces of blending or pulldown, looks like shot at NTSC TV studio.

I am always baffled by anyones desire to convert ntsc <> pal when...

Imagine a situation when you want to combine NTSC/PAL types of footage on the same DVD. Also, when downscaling a good NTSC HD program, I often prefer to keep vertical resolution on PAL level.

... a dvd player will do it for you...

It can't do it any better. When you see it done well, most likely the player doesn't do it at all. It outputs in native system (while transcode mode is turned off) and it's TV that identifies NTSC or PAL, decodes (without framerate conversion) and switches display into proper scanning mode. Then it's perfect.

[victoriabears]

I am very glad that I do not see these issues with stuff I have, dunno why but just glad what I do works.

[lordsmurf]

I'm with you Vic. Most people who convert between formats in software just screw up the quality. There are very few good reasons to do it. Not wanting to buy a $25 DVD player from Walmart isn't one of them!