VideoHelp Forum
+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 8
FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 220
Thread
  1. Originally Posted by Supreme2k
    Couple of things that I have to ask:

    The main purpose of a backup of electronic media is to protect the original, so you always have a "clean" copy (unshrunk, unstripped, full dvd) while using the spare for watching (or playing frisbee, etc), with less fear of damage. The question is, do you rent the backups? If not, at first, do you rent them once the orginal is no longer playable?
    Are you kidding me? We have laws in Spain. How can I rent a backup, regardless if I have the original or not?

    Originally Posted by Supreme2k
    The reason I ask is that this is not a grey area as has been mentioned. You can't use the 30 day guarantee citing the reason for return is because you can't rip it.
    I know. That's exactly why I started this topic. I wanted to find out what's wrong with the disc. Imagine the face of the distributor if I tell him - "eh, you know, your disc can't be ripped but otherwise it plays fine. I want another one".

    Originally Posted by Supreme2k
    The bottom-line is that the movies cease to be your personal property once you use it in your rental business. It becomes business product and not subject to Fair Use. Once you take it out of circulation, then it becomes your property. Just as librarians can't make "backups" of CDs or DVDs, neither can you.
    I see what you're saying but I can give you million of examples where this is the case in any line of business. Never used a company car to go and see your mum on a weekend? Never used a company phone to ring your wife? Just taking advantage of my profession. Especially in this case the "company" is mine.

    Originally Posted by Supreme2k
    Why you voluntarily posted your "backup" activity confounds me. It wasn't relevant to the subject at all.
    This is how your post should have been:
    Originally Posted by petar
    But this is not the case here. I have ripped many hundreds of discs so I have a lot of experience in this.
    Didn't think it was a big deal. I still don't think I'm doing anything wrong morally. Instead of watching the original few weeks later after the demand is not so big, I watch a copy on the day of the release. I delete the copy afterwards anyway. Why would I want it when I have the movie in my store, most of the time several copies, and I can just pick it up any time I want? I just don't want to do this in the first few weeks of the release because, obviously, I can't rent the movie then. Is it illegal? Yes, but so is you making a personal backup of your DVDs too (though granted not in all countries). Correct me if I'm wrong but this site helps in making personal backups because it believes the law is wrong and one should be allowed to do so. How is my case different? All the DVDs in my store are mine - I own 100% of the company. The backups are for my own use. This is the way I see it. If I'm proven wrong I'll accept it but in my mind I'm not doing anything wrong.
    Quote Quote  
  2. Banned
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Search Comp PM
    We don't help make personal backups because we "feel the law is wrong".

    Rather, we feel that the movie studios' INTERPRETATION of the law is wrong. We believe (and we have the backing of the highest courts in the USA on this) that the "fair use" provisions of the law trump the DMCA and similar copy-protecting "laws".

    Remember though, that this only applies in the USA. In your country you have to be governed by YOUR laws.

    That being said, are people doing immoral or illicit stuff on here? Sometimes, maybe, and we don't wanna know. We need plausible deniability... which is why it always irks me when people get into a big discussion about the "little 3", when they CLEARLY cannot afford $25k+ in software... but still we must cling to the thought that they don't SAY that they're breaking laws so...

    See how it works?

    Anyway, I fail to see anything in your authoring description that contradicts what Supreme2k wrote. *shrug*
    Quote Quote  
  3. We don't help make personal backups because we "feel the law is wrong".

    Rather, we feel that the movie studios' INTERPRETATION of the law is wrong. We believe (and we have the backing of the highest courts in the USA on this) that the "fair use" provisions of the law trump the DMCA and similar copy-protecting "laws".
    Twisting the words around but it doesn't make much sense what you're saying. I'm not a lawyer but one thing I do know is that the laws are not opened to interpretation (in court that is; here on this site you can interpret them as much as you want). At least here in Spain, few times I had to read some laws (not related to DVDs) they were pretty clear.

    So if the law in your country says that you can't copy a DVD, what you BELIEVE in is completely irrelevant in front of the law. The DMCA may believe "fair use" means something else but at the end of the day, if the law says you can't copy your DVD, that's the end of it. Yet, there are plenty of guides on this site how to rip a DVD. I also believe that what I do (make a copy of the DVDs in my own store to watch them once only at home) is nothing wrong. I don't see why I got "picked up" for copying when it's discussed all the time on this site.

    If it makes you or Supreme2k feel any better, my company is registered on the same address as my home. So I'm not taking the copy outside the company. I can say I'm experimenting or making a copy for educational purposes (to learn the DVD structure; this is legal in Spain).

    That being said, are people doing immoral or illicit stuff on here? Sometimes, maybe, and we don't wanna know. We need plausible deniability... which is why it always irks me when people get into a big discussion about the "little 3", when they CLEARLY cannot afford $25k+ in software... but still we must cling to the thought that they don't SAY that they're breaking laws so...
    Come on man, you're going to compare me making a copy of my own DVDs (which I delete after viewing it anyway) with someone pirating a $25K worth of software?

    Anyway, I fail to see anything in your authoring description that contradicts what Supreme2k wrote.
    I wasn't contradicting. I was just saying that it's not such a big deal as you guys are making it.
    Quote Quote  
  4. Member adam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    petar I don't see anything on that site you posted which contradicts what I said. Furthermore, that is definitely not representative of the DVD specifications. It is just a general DVD guide, the first thing written in it is "unofficial." Finally, I will put this as nicely as I can. You are basing everything you have said on a scenarist guide but I'm fairly confident that you have never used Scenarist. If you had you would realize how easy and compliant it is to author DVDs exactly like the one you are having difficulty with. There was nothing manual done to it, its the result of some VERY common authoring techniques. Nevertheless, that site looks to be a great source of information which I never knew about before, so thanks for that. We will just have to agree to disagree, since its really beyond the scope of this thread anyway.

    Maybe it is possible that authoring methods and software really do differ that much from your region to mine. Again I can assure you that I see these things all the time in commercial DVDs and I author them all the time in Scenarist. You've got such a disk sitting right in front of you too, and like you say, it plays fine. Come on region 1 folks back me up here. Pull 5 DVDs off your shelf and browse them. At least one will have no VTS_0X_01.VOB. Its an extremely common way to use dummy tracks for navigation. I'll list a few such disks when I get home. There are some guides on the process in the doom9.net forums too if anyone is interested.

    Anyway, good luck backing up this disk. I have no idea what the laws are like in Spain so I'll assume you know what you are doing.
    Quote Quote  
  5. this problem is caused by a DAMAGED disk. i already ripped myoriginal copy of the movie that comes in widescreen only without problem.
    Quote Quote  
  6. Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Going in Circles
    Search Comp PM
    You could try one of those disc-doctors to fix the disc.
    Quote Quote  
  7. Adam,
    I wasn't trying to start an argument or anything like that. It's just that we disagree on this issue. I did check quite a few commercial discs and I couldn't find a single one authored the way you're saying. It's possible you guys in the "NTSC world" author your discs in a different way.

    The web site I mentioned actually uses examples from Scenarist and I based my statements on that. I know you have Scenarist and I know it's the most flexible tool out there (I would love to get my hands on it but business isn't going that well) but I still don't understand how you'd move from one titleset to another without going to the VMG. Scenarist may be flexible but it can't go outside the DVD specs. What command do you use to accomplish this?

    The paragraph I referred to is (quote from the site):
    "Since the DVD specifications do not allow branching directly from one VTS to another, the VMG domain usually contains many empty PGCs with only precommands to route requests from one VTS to another."
    This is stated on this web site, on the DVD-Lab web site and any other site that deals with DVD authoring.

    Again, I'm not trying to start an argument. I value your experience (that's why I'm here on this site - to learn and to find answers to my questions) but I can't get it how Scenarist can get around this.

    As for the VTS_xx_1.VOB files, if you say you have many discs like that, I have no reason not to believe you. But believe me as well when I say I still can't find a single one (except the disc of this topic) that is like this. And since our discussion started I must have checked several dozens. And there were plenty that didn't have the VTS_xx_0.VOB file. Must be a difference in the authoring style between Region 1 and 2.

    However, from your response I get the feeling that because I don't have Scenarist you undermind my knowledge and experience of the DVD structure. I don't think that's fair nor there's a reason for making such comments. Precisely because I don't have Scenarist and I have accomplished to author the most complicated DVDs (through DVD-Lab, TDA and afterwards modifying almost everything with IfoEdit and VobEdit) is what gave me plenty of knowledge about the DVD structure and its commands.

    Anyway, back to the topic. I ordered a replacement and should get it Monday or Tuesday. I'll let you know. However, one thing is interesting. Though it's most likely that the disc is faulty, it's a hell of a way to protect it, isn't it? Plays just fine but it can't be ripped. Perhaps I can go back to the studio and tell them I want enourmous amount of money because I've found a way to protect DVDs from ripping - "just find out what mistake you've made with this disc and repeat it on any other".
    Quote Quote  
  8. Originally Posted by Biodroid
    this problem is caused by a DAMAGED disk. i already ripped myoriginal copy of the movie that comes in widescreen only without problem.
    Biodroid, what country are you in? If you don't live in Spain, it wouldn't be the same disc. The retail version is not out here yet.
    I asked before but... if anyone in Spain has rented the disc, could you please try and rip it? I'm not trying to encourage anyone to piracy, it's just that I can't find any other way to test the disc. Sector Extractor didn't do the job either (though it came closer than any other tool - managed to rip all but two VOB files; complained about errors and key exchange or something).
    Quote Quote  
  9. Greetings Supreme2k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Right Here, Right Now
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by petar
    I know. That's exactly why I started this topic. I wanted to find out what's wrong with the disc. Imagine the face of the distributor if I tell him - "eh, you know, your disc can't be ripped but otherwise it plays fine. I want another one".
    That's what I was saying. If you can't say it to the distributor, why say it here?
    Also, why wouldn't the distributor exchange it for one that can be ripped, if it is like you say:
    So I'm not taking the copy outside the company. I can say I'm experimenting or making a copy for educational purposes (to learn the DVD structure; this is legal in Spain).
    Just tell him that, and he can exchange it.

    Originally Posted by petar
    I see what you're saying but I can give you million of examples where this is the case in any line of business. Never used a company car to go and see your mum on a weekend? Never used a company phone to ring your wife? Just taking advantage of my profession. Especially in this case the "company" is mine.
    Completely different. You can't squeeze a Civic from an Accord, then use the Civic at home. I see no legal problem if you are in your video store watching one of the DVDs. You haven't made a copy in that regard. As for the phone, if you're calling from your home and charging it (unauthorized) to your work, I think that you'll be in a bit of a "situation".


    Originally Posted by petar
    Didn't think it was a big deal. I still don't think I'm doing anything wrong morally.
    That's a key point. Someone may think that smoking marijuana or beating their kids is not morally wrong, but they don't need to advertise the fact if they want to stay out of trouble.

    There is way too much attempted rationalization in your post. It has been said over and over that this site condones illegal activity, and comparisons are always made to (guess what?) copying rentals.
    The fact is that most (if not all) countries allow Fair Use. It just hasn't been tested in court. Fair Use is only in effect on videos that you own, and for your personal use. While you have the FBI warnings and such about copying, the spirit of the law is about copying for distribution, not backup. Who cares if you have a backup if you can walk into another room, open a cabinet (out of reach of the kids) and show the original? That's the purpose of backups: You copy the movie, then store the original to keep it safe, as a "clean" version (not shrunk, chopped, clipped, etc.)
    Quote Quote  
  10. Member adam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by petar
    The paragraph I referred to is (quote from the site):
    "Since the DVD specifications do not allow branching directly from one VTS to another, the VMG domain usually contains many empty PGCs with only precommands to route requests from one VTS to another."
    You are taking these things completely out of context. The key word in that paragraph is branching. You cannot link from certain items in one VTS to certain items in another VTS. Therefore you cannot branch between them. That does not mean you cannot link at all from one to the next. If you ever get a chance to play with Scenarist you can quickly learn what links are prohibited. Just drag your links between VTS'es. If its prohibited you get an X, otherwise you're good to go.

    Originally Posted by petar
    how you'd move from one titleset to another without going to the VMG. Scenarist may be flexible but it can't go outside the DVD specs. What command do you use to accomplish this?
    Easy. I create two VTS'es. I add my assets to each. I author a button command on a cell to jump to the second VTS. I never have to link to the Video Manager. This is what I meant when I said you would understand if you had ever used Scenarist. It is very easy to figure out how to author the DVD like this, and it works well. It is actually more complex to use the Video Manager to jump between VTS'es and it isn't necessary unless you need to make a specific jump which cannot be made directly.

    My computer at home is down right now. As soon as its up I can post a screenshot of Scenarist illustrating this simple method of navigation.

    Originally Posted by petar
    However, from your response I get the feeling that because I don't have Scenarist you undermind my knowledge and experience of the DVD structure. I don't think that's fair nor there's a reason for making such comments.
    Not at all my intention. Its just that you reference the DVD specs, which obviously neither of us will ever see, yet your only authority is a site which merely has guides on Scenarist. I think you just took some of that guide's language out of context, and if you or anyone had the opportunity to use Scenarist it would be clearer what some of that language means. For instance, as stated above it is extremely easy to link from one VTS to another, yet just from reading that site you could easily draw the opposite interpretation.
    Quote Quote  
  11. Adam, as I mentioned in my previous post, I sure don't want to start an argument. I just want to understand. The web site I used as reference seems to me that it has important experience with Scenarist hence I trust it. But I know you do too so that's why I ask you to explain stuff. I know the web site is unofficial but so is all the info on this site.
    I don't normally make claims if I'm not sure (or better said, I believe I'm sure) about something. It wasn't just the DVD-replica web site. The DVD-Lab web site has the same info (read the paragraph below the image).
    http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/tutorial/multivts.html
    To quote it, it writes:
    "There are various limitations. For example you can't link directly an item (Movie or Menu) from one VTS with Movie or menu of other VTS. To be able to actually go to different VTS, DVD's have a kind of switch board called VMG (Video Manager which should be de facto called Video Tile Set Manager if we want to be correct). The menus in VMG domain can be used to link to different VTS's."
    I would have thought a designer of a DVD authoring tool would know his stuff.

    I also check this site often because it seems to me there are a lot of experts, especially on Scenarist, and the post below claims it can't be done
    http://www.dmnforums.com/cgi-bin/disppost.cgi?forum=dvd_creation&filename=020702184527.htm

    Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to prove I'm right here. If you say you've done it with Scenarist, then it is possible. I'm just saying I wasn't basing my claims on something I took out of context. I was basing my claims on my belief that the above mentioned sites have access to the DVD specs. Maybe my English is limited but the quote from the DVD-Lab site is pretty clear to me.

    Anyway, I believe you that this can be done (instead of those sites, I consider you my authority from now on ). Please, when you get a chance post a screenshot of Scenarist. Also, if it's not too much trouble, post a screenshot of VobEdit where I can see which button command is used. I would like to try to do this myself without Scenarist.
    Quote Quote  
  12. Supreme2k, I think you're taking this way too far. By your logic, as long as the copy is not identical to the original, it's OK to have it as a backup of the original.
    That's the purpose of backups: You copy the movie, then store the original to keep it safe, as a "clean" version (not shrunk, chopped, clipped, etc.)
    So does that mean you can't backup a DVD5?

    I think you misunderstood me in my comparisons.
    Completely different. You can't squeeze a Civic from an Accord, then use the Civic at home.
    What I was trying to say is that legally you can't use a company car for private purposes (if you've deducted VAT based on the fact it's a company asset), yet on a weekend you go and see your mum with it (hypotetical example, I don't mean you specifically). Same with the phone. If you're deducting VAT of your phone bill because it's a company asset, you shouldn't be using it to call your wife. So, yes, if you put it black or white I shouldn't be using a DVD from my store, which is a company asset, for private use (which according to the "fair use" provision would allow me to make a personal copy).

    But as I mentioned it's a one off copy which gets deleted after viewing and my home and my company are registered on the same address. So in theory, I'm not taking the copy outside the company anyway, I'm not distributing it, comercialising it, borrowing it to someone or anything like that. People ask for opinions on a particular movie, sometimes even for explanation if they haven't understood something, and it's an advantage in my business if I've seen the movie before my customers. But I don't want to take the movie out until I've seen it because then I can't have it available for my customers.

    Had I thought what I do is wrong, I wouldn't have mentioned it. I did because I didn't think it was wrong. If it is, I appologise. I'm against pirating movies (how could I not be; it hurts my business). But I still think you're taking this too far, especially comparing it to smoking marijuana or beating the kids.
    Quote Quote  
  13. Retired from video stuff MackemX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    VIP Lounge
    Search Comp PM
    is this thread still around?

    p.s. some people should get out more often as there's more to life than backing up DVD's
    Quote Quote  
  14. MackemX, not sure if you were referring to me in your comment but this issue is important to me not because I don't have a life but because it's part of my business. Legal or not, right or wrong, I backup a DVD on its release to watch it at home before my customers do so that I can tell them what's it about when they ask. I consider it as part of my (good) customer service.
    I couldn't back up the House of Sand and Fog and I started this topic asking for help, with a wild guess that since it plays just fine and can't be ripped, maybe it's some studio found a workaround to protect it. That's all. I didn't meant to start arguments over legality of backing up DVDs.
    Quote Quote  
  15. Retired from video stuff MackemX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    VIP Lounge
    Search Comp PM
    hi petar

    nope it isn't really a personal remark but more a general remark at everything. Some people may know the in's and out's of the legalities etc but at the end of it, we all have our own 'law' when it comes to this debate of backing up and fair use and as long as you are happy who really gives a toss . Sadly others like to have their say on your actions and some don't even offer a solution even though you are not exactly commiting murder and looking for a genuine reply

    the best thing of course is to say nothing apart from you are backing up your 'own' copy as you only end up with the thread evolving into what it has when you mention anything that is slightly off track

    p.s. @all, at the end of the day, most DVD backup people here are breaking the law in most countries even if they own the original! So no matter how small the crime the law is still being broken so give everyone a break people. I mean is petar really commiting such a horrible crime worthy of slamming him with all the crap he has got?
    Quote Quote  
  16. Banned
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Search Comp PM
    Some points:

    1. One of the fundamental concepts behind the law in the USA is that it is open to interpretation by the courts. Lower courts have allowed the RIAA, MPAA, and other organizations to abuse the broad-based "powers" granted to them by the DMCA (Digital Millennium Copyright ACt), which itself is being reviewed by the Supreme Court, and will eventually be amended or dismissed due to its unconstitutionality.

    2. The fair-use provisions of the copyright law trump the DMCA. It's an older law. It has precedent. You can't make a new law that says that it's illegal to do things which an old law says are specifically NOT illegal without either declaring the old law null and void or doing some extensive legal trickery... just as you can't make a new law saying that it's now legal to smoke crack without repealing the old laws that say you can be locked up for it.

    3. Is what you're doing immoral? I don't personally think so, but I don't make the laws in your country.

    4. Nobody has a problem with you personally. But we very specifically DO NOT say where we get stuff from in here, so as to avoid this entire line of discussion... again.
    Quote Quote  
  17. 4. Nobody has a problem with you personally. But we very specifically DO NOT say where we get stuff from in here, so as to avoid this entire line of discussion... again.
    I understand. MackemX pointed this out to me too. I think at the beginning I wrote something like "I've ripped all new releases in the past year or two" and since I mentioned already the DVD is from my video rentals store (I thought it's important information because rental and retail editions are not produced at the same time and their DVD structure is often different), I thought I explain myself why, so that you guys don't think "what a hell is this dude doing, ripping dvd rentals all the time". But yeah I learned so I won't be mentioning stuff like this anymore.
    Quote Quote  
  18. Member adam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    Cool, Petar. I sure didn't want to start an argument either, I just knew it was possible and am having a hard time explaining why because its been so long since I have been able to access Scenarist since my pc is down. Basically all those quotes are saying is that you cannot directly link from an item in one VTS to an item in another VTS. But you can make a jump to the VTS itself, it will just play the first item which would be the first PGC in the first Title. As long as you don't need to jump to, say title 2 or PGC 2, then there is no reason to use the Video Manager for this link.

    I'm sure this thread will be gone before my pc is up. I'll pm you a screenshot of what I'm talking about whenever I can.
    Quote Quote  
  19. Member adam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by Gurm
    Some points:

    2. The fair-use provisions of the copyright law trump the DMCA. It's an older law. It has precedent. You can't make a new law that says that it's illegal to do things which an old law says are specifically NOT illegal without either declaring the old law null and void or doing some extensive legal trickery... just as you can't make a new law saying that it's now legal to smoke crack without repealing the old laws that say you can be locked up for it.
    Its exactly the opposite. Unless stated otherwise, newer law trumps, or more specifically it preempts, older law. That's the point of legislation; to update old laws as society progresses. When a new law comes out, it is presumed to revoke any previous law (that includes case-law) which held otherwise. Of course there are often unforseen conflicts between new and old laws, and that's where the courts step in to interpret the intent of the legislators. But there is really no conflict between Fair Use and the DMCA, at least how they are written.

    You are right about Fair Use preempting the DMCA, its just because its expressly written into the DMCA. It has a provision which states that NOTHING in it applies to any Fair Use right. So if you, say want to copy a section of a DVD and play it for your class, then you are allowed to do so and you are allowed to break CSS encryption as well. It is totally legal.

    But no court anywhere in the United States has ever held that backing up an entire DVD that you own is a Fair Use right. This is just an assumption that everyone on the internet seems to make. Fair Use really is not intended to be used this way at all.
    Quote Quote  
  20. Uh, Adam, now you confused me even more (perhaps I should open a new topic under DVD authoring to discuss this).
    But you can make a jump to the VTS itself, it will just play the first item which would be the first PGC in the first Title. As long as you don't need to jump to, say title 2 or PGC 2, then there is no reason to use the Video Manager for this link.
    But if you can make this jump from another VTS then you can jump anywhere without any need of the VMG whatsoever. Say you're in VTS 1 and you want to jump to VTS 2, Title 3, PGC 4. So you can set a particular register to a particular value in VTS 1 before this jump command you're mentioning and once you're in VTS 2, you can conditionally (based on the register value) go from the pre command section of the entry PGC to anywhere you want within VTS 2, including Title 3, PGC 4. Isn't that so?

    Yeah, please when you can PM me the screenshot.
    Quote Quote  
  21. Member adam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    Yes you could do that but that does not make it a direct link. You are linking to the VTS itself and then you are using further links to navigate elsewhere. No problem there. Like I said, you don't even need to link to the Video Manager for most authoring projects.
    Quote Quote  
  22. Banned
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Search Comp PM
    Actually archival backups have long been held as appropriate under "fair use". The fact that this has never been dealt with by a high court is simply indicative of the fact that it never MAKES it that far.

    - Gurm
    Quote Quote  
  23. Member adam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by Gurm
    Actually archival backups have long been held as appropriate under "fair use". The fact that this has never been dealt with by a high court is simply indicative of the fact that it never MAKES it that far.
    Gurm, please don't just make stuff up. There is no such case or law which has even come close to asserting that archiving a DVD for personal use is a Fair Use right. Copying a DVD for archival purposes is NOT a legally recognized Fair Use right...yet. I can absolutely guarantee you that this is the case.

    The reason it hasn't reached a high court, or ANY court for that matter, is because its nearly impossible to catch anybody in the act.

    Some of the 321 Studio's cases have used Fair Use as a defense but the court didn't buy it and they weren't arguing for archival backups anyway.
    Quote Quote  
  24. I thought 321 studioes lost the case ? atleast that's what I read on AfterDawn a few weeks ago
    Email me for faster replies!

    Best Regards,
    Sefy Levy,
    Certified Computer Technician.
    Quote Quote  
  25. Member adam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    They did lose, twice. Once against MPAA and once against Macrovision. The software is effectively unmarketable now unless they reverse the ruling.

    They raised Fair Use as an affirmative defense in the MPAA case. They argued that it would entirely prevent Fair Use copying (ie: copying sections for education, parody, etc... NOT archival backups) if they were enjoined from using DeCSS routines. Like I said, the court didn't buy that argument. They held that you could still make analogue copies.

    As of yet, no court anywhere in America has addressed the issue of whether copying a DVD qualifies as a Fair Use right, or any other exception to a copyright. So until that happens, or a law expressly makes the process legal, it is technically illegal under the DMCA and it is also a violation of copyright.
    Quote Quote  
  26. VH Veteran jimmalenko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Down under
    Search PM
    Nothing is illegal until you get caught.
    If in doubt, Google it.
    Quote Quote  
  27. Banned
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Search Comp PM
    They haven't addressed whether it's legal or not because it IS.

    They addressed it in the case of DAT, in the case of copying on cassette, in the case of copying from the radio. This has all been gone over before, and the fact that nobody has brought up DVD copying is because it's relatively new technology that simply rehashes an old law.

    The question is:

    "Are you allowed to make a personal archival copy of any movie/music that you have purchased?"

    And the answer, time after time, without exception, is YES.

    No matter who challenges it, no matter what new laws are passed, the answer is YES.

    Now, it's a bit murky at this stage because you ARE allowed to make a personal archival backup but you AREN'T allowed, according to the DMCA, to bypass CSS in order to do so.

    Heh.

    - Gurm
    Quote Quote  
  28. Member adam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    Again, please don't just make this up. Some of us research this area of the law for a living and know, for a fact, exactly what the current state of Fair Use is.

    In regards to radio and television broadcasts, yes you can back these up under Fair Use because they are considered time shifting. That has nothing to do with archival backups. Fair use does not allow you to make archival copies. That is not at all what Fair Use has traditionally been used for. Please just do a web search, there are lots sites devoted to this. You can read the language of Fair Use in full and can see all of the instances which it has been applied to. Archival copies of any kind of media have never been recognized, except for particular institutions like libraries.

    As far as copying copyrighted music cds or cassettes, or VHS tapes or DVDs, there has NEVER, I repeat NEVER, been a single case or law which has made the archival copying of these legal. If you know of such a case go ahead and cite it, but please don't just refer me to the "cassette case." Maybe you are thinking of Sony v. Betamax. If so go read it again, because that only applies to timeshifting, not archival copies. If the material is copyrighted it is a violation of that copyright to back it up. Of course I am talking about the United States here, and the same is true in most other countries as well. There are exceptions though, for instance in Canada where they grant backups and allow a subsidy to the affected industries.

    Archival copying of any copyrigted material is obviously always going to be presumably illegal under Title 17. That is the whole point. Unless you have an exception to that (Fair Use, or the copyright limitation for computer software) then what you do is illegal. This was true even before the DMCA was passed.

    With all due respect Gurm, I have done quite a bit of research on this. I have one more year and I will be licensed to practice as an Intellectual Property lawyer. I currently work for an IP firm where we handle mostly copyrights, and some patents and trademarks. I have also attended 3 seminars on Fair Use and have discussed Fair Use vs. DMCA, I don't know how many times, in the various IP courses I have taken in law school. Of course this doesn't necessarily make me any more qualified to discuss this issue than you, but it does make me highly skeptical of your position since I have never seen it taken before by any of the IP lawyers, judges, or professors I have met, nor have I ever seen it presented in any of the cases I have ever had to research.

    So basically what I'm saying is, we should be able to agree that copying copyrighted material is a violation of that copyright. In support of that I will refer you to Title 17. Sec. 106 of the USC. There is my authority. It says, quite broadly, that the copyright holder has the exclusive rights to make any copies for any reason. So if you can refer me to any law or particular case which provides the exception to that for archival copies of anything other than computer software, I'd be glad to hear it.
    Quote Quote  
  29. Greetings Supreme2k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Right Here, Right Now
    Search Comp PM
    So are you saying that this site is not in the "grey area", and that it is actually condoning (and teaching) completely illegal activities?

    It sounded like you were referring to only archival backup, but you strayed to copies, period. I don't know if it has been applied to entertainment media, but software backup constitutes "fair use". As a matter of fact, it has been recommended for years, since floppies (and before).*





    *of course, I could be wrong. I'm not some hot-shot, college-going, pretty boy.
    Well, I graduated from college, but not with that degree. And, well, some people do call me a hot-shot, and I do happen to be very pretty, but, well there's a slight possibility I may be wrong on the law stuff. Or maybe not.
    Quote Quote  



Similar Threads

Visit our sponsor! Try DVDFab and backup Blu-rays!