I searched the Forums and didn't find the answer to this regarding film look, so here goes...
1/ Can I change the frame rate of DV video from 30fps (or is it 60?) to 24fps?
2/ Should I do that in Premiere?
3/ Or should I do that in TMPGenc (NTSC film)?
4/ Through experience with SVCDs, I know that deinterlacing video can also produce a film look. Why?
5/ And what role should this play in producing film-look home movies from DV to DVD?
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Is it actually 30fps or was it 24fps converted to 30fps? Usally the only reason for converting 30fps to 24fps is if the source, which started out in life as 24fps, was converted to 30fps, and you want to restore it to 24fps. If your source is actually 30fps, converting to 24fps will make your video look choppy. But when I've had to do this, I used AVISynth to do it, but it can be done in TMPGEnc if you wanna try, I found TMPGEnc would crash alot trying to do stuff like that.
Originally Posted by Ejoc
It sounds like messing with the frame rate is a bad idea. Can you suggest another way to give a film look to exisiting MiniDV video.
There are a few consumer level DV camcorders that film in 24fps progressive, but they are very expensive. The vast majority shoot in what is called pure film, and they shoot at either 25fps (PAL) or 29.97fps (NTSC.) Pure film means that every single frame is made up of 2 fields, which means there are 60 totally independant fields. In other words, each of these fields represents a specfic moment in time. If you remove any field anywhere, than you have a gap in your recording which will result in choppy playback.
When you shoot in film (24fps progressive) you telecine it to 29.97fps. Fields are repeated in a specific pattern to increase the framerate. To reverse the process you simply remove these duplicated fields using an inverse telecine filter. Unfortunately this is impossible with DV since it was actually shot at 29.97fps.
Now, 24fps is completely out of the question but there are still some things you can do to try to get that "film look." Check out the section titled "How do I get "film look" shooting with DV cameras?" on this excellent DV site.
Thanks for the reply, Adam. And thanks for the link.
Regarding fps, I always get confused by this. Is the following correct:
- Film uses 24fps (progressive)
- Consumer DV uses 60fps (interlaced)
- High-end DV can do 30fps (progressive), which sort of looks like 24fps progressive
Now, I have noticed that if I de-interlace my DV AVI in TMPGENC during output to (DVD) mpeg-2, the product looks more like film. Is that because I have thrown away half the lines? Is this comparable to a high-end camera that does 30fps progressive? And if so, how come I haven't seen this recommended by anyone?
No, this is a misconception. 24 FPS, isn't always progressive, although when hollywood creates it, it is. Many 24fps DVD's still have interlacing in them due to editing. If you're viewing on a TV set, then mpg2 supports interlacing, which is what your camera is....
Even if you could produce a 24fps encode, the only advantage you'll get is encoding compressibility. The only way you could get what you're looking for without too much hassle, is get a progressive DV camcorder, progressive DVD player, and an HDTV (or computer monitor), that all support progressive output..
As a rule of thumb, don't deinterlace your MiniDV outputs for NTSC TV's...
What do you mean by "to give a film look?" Letter boxing? I dont get how 24fps looks way different.
The "film look" is referring more to the way analogue filming looks compared to digital filming. Film is kinda a dirtier look, more real almost. DV gets very grainy in low light and its more prone to mosquito noise. It just looks more processed.
There are filters which actually "mess up" the footage to make it look more like film.
A major advantage of having a film source is that the lower frames per second grants you a significant amount of compressibility because now you have the same bitrate being spread out over less frames. The biggest benefit is that a 24fps source is inherantly progressive and progressive material is much easier for an encoder to work with.
pijetro when DVDs contain a mix of progressive and interlaced material it is because some scenes (usually heavy effects shots, scene changes, and opening and closing credits) have been hard telecined. Yes they are interlaced now but they are no longer 24fps they are 29.97fps. Its true you could have interlaced 24fps materal, but there wouldn't be any reason to.
If your DV camcorder captures interlaced than always leave it that way for DVD. The only reason to deinterlace is if you are encoding to VCD, in which case it only supports progressive, or if you are encoding to SVCD, in which case progressive material compresses much better, and even then this is a judgment call.
To increase compressibility you must use some light noise filtering. I use Procoder's gausian blur and it works wonders. This is the only way to remove that grainy look in dark parts, short of lighting the entire scene which usually isn't practical.
Most of the lower end DV camcorders which film in progressive mode sort of cheat. The link I posted talks about it. Its not true progressive. Higher end models can record in true 29.97fps or 25fps progressive, and very high end models can film in 24fps progressive, which is as close to "film" as you can get.
The "film look" is pretty elusive when it comes to consumer level DV filming. Hopefully in the next few years we will see some more sub $1000 progressive DV camcorders, and ultimately my dream is for HD Cams to become feasible. Now THAT will be fun.
pijetro when DVDs contain a mix of progressive and interlaced material it is because some scenes (usually heavy effects shots, scene changes, and opening and closing credits) have been hard telecined. Yes they are interlaced now but they are no longer 24fps they are 29.97fps. Its true you could have interlaced 24fps materal, but there wouldn't be any reason to
My above link states that not all progressive footage reaches the encoding floor progressively, although originally it might have been..
I've encoded PAL VHS captures from 25fps to 23.976fps for film framerate with success, and realized "Hey, my film framerate is pure interlaced frames?!". But it worked out alright. Thank goodness for interlace output.