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  1. In your opinion what would be the best way to archive captured video so I do not lose it? My plan is to somewhere down the road use it again and I would need it in an editable format. That would leave MPEG-2 out. I have tried to back it up to a high quality DIVX file but I'm having problems with Audio-Video sync. Any suggestions on converting and archiving? Any suggestions appreciated!
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  2. For pure acrhiving DivX or xvid burnt to a DVD-ROM. If you're having trouble you can try a program like gordian knot (http://www.doom9.org) to help you out.

    But it depends on how you plan to use the video latter. A low motion quaility 15fps Divx at 352x240 is good for archiving lots of data just to 'store it.' Not so good to latter use as a source for burning DVDs or showing on any TV larger than 12"
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  3. My plan is to use it later if necessary for editing. I tried a fairly high quality DIVX, but had sync issues that I am working on now.
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  4. Member
    Join Date: Feb 2003
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    Forget Divx or Xvid for archiving... If it has any importance/value. What you see now is the best you will get later and Divx is a loss type compression format. Later after editing quality will be worse unless saved in a lossless format now.

    What you say about editing make it sound like family videos?

    If you have a DVD burner store em that way. If it's worth archiving in a NON DVD Video format it is worth spending the extra bucks. IMHO.

    However having said that I make my DVDs and that is it. I keep the Vacation & wedding tapes as my backups. And others will disagree, free country.

    Cheers
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  5. Member
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    Addendum: About Divx and Xvid not not being good for archiving? Do a search or read back and see all the problems converting them that users here are having now.

    Cheers
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  6. I would archive in the format that it was captured as. 720X480 AVI DV files take a lot of space. I record back to Mini DV tape. Since DV tape stores as a digital format, it should last a little longer than analog format. If you are going yo use it again say in 3 to 8 years, it should be ok. Another option is to burn on to DVD's. I would not use any compression.
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  7. The Old One SatStorm's Avatar
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    The old good trusty mjpeg is the best way to store -with good compression- home movies
    DV also is a good altrernative, but my experience show me that mjpeg is really - really good and encodes itself easy to mpeg 1/2/4
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  8. Member DJRumpy's Avatar
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    All of these are good options. I wouldn't discount any of them. It just depends on how much space you want to use for archiving. I'm guessing from your comment about DV taking up a lot of space, that space is an issue. In that case, I agree that Divx/Xvid is your best option for a compressed format. DV comes in at about a 5:1 compression ratio. DivX can easily exceed 30:1. For Divx/Xvid, given a high enough bitrate, the drop in quality will be unnoticable. MPEG-2 can produce 1:1 copies starting somewhere around the 10 Mbs mark. DivX/XviD formats can do so at a much lower bitrate. They are also easily converted into any other format since they are AVI. Hours and hours of MPEG-4 can be stored on DVD -R/+R, and around 2 hours can be stored on CD with excellent quality. I would utilize multipass VBR, and if you have enough time, at least 3-4 passes to maximize bit allocation.

    You'll get more specific answers if you let everyone know what sort of limitations you have on your output. Does it have to fit on any particular media, or will it just sit on your hard drive? You get the idea.

    Also, what type of sync issues are you having, and what process did you use to convert them?
    Impossible to see the future is. The Dark Side clouds everything...
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    actually mpeg2 is also editable.
    there is even a mod of vdub which opens mpeg2, so you can archive in mpeg2 @ 10000 mbps,edit it using modded vdub, frameserve and then reencode into lower rate.
    if you choose mpeg2 or divx/xvid, it is a very good idea to remove noise while encoding.
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  10. MPEG2 is probably the best way to go. Any mpeg4 codec is problematic because it has an avi wrapper. I have no idea why they decided to do this, but its created a ton of issues.
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  11. Member
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    I captured into divx/xvid couple of times and it was very difficult to edit it using vdub : scroll speed was very slow, so it was real pain. this must be because if the wrapper.
    On the other hand, i didn'l see such problem with vdub-mpeg2.


    IMO it is also a good idea to use the same encoder for both archival and final encoding because artifacts would be the same and less vislble.

    So I agree that mpeg2 is a way to go.
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  12. Member dcsos's Avatar
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    VOTE NUMBER 3 or 4 FOR MPEG-2

    Which is getting more editable day by day with programs mindful of
    GOP I-FRAME STRUCTURE
    (read: no glicth at new edit point-and all languages preserved)

    I back-up any assets I create in PREMIERE or VEGAS or TMPG,
    by also making a DATA DISC of the MPEG-2 files
    I HAD SUBMITTED to the AUTHORING APPLICATION
    after the DVD is SUCESSFULLY CREATED

    this is expensive, but great if I wanna re-use the pieces in a new project
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  13. Member DJRumpy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MrKGB
    actually mpeg2 is also editable.
    there is even a mod of vdub which opens mpeg2, so you can archive in mpeg2 @ 10000 mbps,edit it using modded vdub, frameserve and then reencode into lower rate.
    MPEG-2 is not directly editable. It is a streaming meda. The output stream could be modifed during playback (much like capturing a new file), but the source cannot be edited directly, other than changing flags on the mpeg. The fact that you reencode is telling you is is not editable.

    MPEG-2 is just inferior to MPEG-4 when it comes to quality for bitrate. It also has a poor compression ratio compared to MPEG-4.
    Originally Posted by MrKGB
    I captured into divx/xvid couple of times and it was very difficult to edit it using vdub : scroll speed was very slow, so it was real pain. this must be because if the wrapper.
    On the other hand, i didn'l see such problem with vdub-mpeg2.
    This is most likely due to the keyframe configuration in the AVI. You can attempt to repair it in VirtualDub, by generating new keyframes. When doing a FILE | OPEN, put a check in the 'Popup extended open options', and select your AVI. When you get the advance open options, select 'Re-derive keyframe flags'.

    If someone has intentionally set some large gap between keyframes, then this can also cause poor seek performance. It is not due to a flaw in MPEG-4, it's due to a poor choice by the person doing the encoding.
    Originally Posted by LanEvo7
    MPEG2 is probably the best way to go. Any mpeg4 codec is problematic because it has an avi wrapper. I have no idea why they decided to do this, but its created a ton of issues.
    Can you give me an idea of what issues your having with these? Perhaps it's not a format issue.
    Impossible to see the future is. The Dark Side clouds everything...
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  14. Member dcsos's Avatar
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    MPEG-2 is not directly editable. It is a streaming meda. The output stream could be modifed during playback (much like capturing a new file), but the source cannot be edited directly, other than changing flags on the mpeg. The fact that you reencode is telling you is is not editable.
    If what you mean by this is
    IF YOU ADD EFFECTS or TRANSITIONS to this STREAM then

    YES YOU MUST RE-ENCODE

    but IF YOU JUST MERELY want to APPEND or TRUNCATE the streams..
    I BEG TO DIFFER
    as THE NEW MPEG-2 EDITING PROGRAMS take care of this without re-encoding..
    All the correctly editing mpeg-2 program needs do is search back to the last I-FRAME and reconstitute the interpolated content, then JOIN or CUT at the new IFRAME point

    SO I modify what I say..MPEG-2 archivally if you just need to cut an join,
    otherwise
    SAVE the capture file as he suggects!

    you could
    USE a STREAMING tape drive and you can get those pesky 10 gig capfiles
    on ICE
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  15. I have the same problem.

    How about using something like HJSplit to split the file into manageable-sized chunks (e.g., 4.3GB). Then the chunks could be stored on as many DVDs as necessary, for reassembly at a later time. This would avoid any processing on the captured file (lossless or otherwise).

    This isn't the cheapest solution, but the cost of the media shouldn't be prohibitive for cherished home videos. You could process the DV-AVI files at a later time, taking advantage of the latest and best encoders available when you do. You would probably want to include a copy of HJSplit (or whatever you use) on one DVD to be sure you have a way to join them in the future.

    Anyone have comments on this? My hard drive's filling up and I need to archive stuff myself!
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  16. Member
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    I just encoding my capture avi video (huffyuv) to mpeg2 with split wave file.
    When I need to burn to VCD I recompress with VirtualDub adding subtitle and have good VCD.
    This is just my experience to collect Music video clip from MTV and adding subtitle.
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  17. Member
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    Originally Posted by DJRumpy
    MPEG-2 is not directly editable. It is a streaming meda. The output stream could be modifed during playback (much like capturing a new file), but the source cannot be edited directly, other than changing flags on the mpeg. The fact that you reencode is telling you is is not editable.
    I thought the same before i tried the vdub-mpeg2
    It opens mpeg exactly like any other AVI file, and one can edit it the same way as any avi file. The only problem is that it is not possible to save the file as mpeg, but it is possible to frameserve into encoder, which is exactly what we need.
    Of course mpeg2 is still a stream, but it looks like vdub-mpeg2 creates some wrapper around mpeg, so it works like avi.
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    I vote for storing miniDV avi files on DVD. DVD blanks are less than $2 a pop now and, at that price, they are as cheap as miniDV tape for archiving and are much more reliable. This way you have your original source video archived and can do anything you want to do in the future without any difficulty in editing or loss of quality.
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  19. Member DJRumpy's Avatar
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    I thought the same before i tried the vdub-mpeg2
    It opens mpeg exactly like any other AVI file, and one can edit it the same way as any avi file. The only problem is that it is not possible to save the file as mpeg, but it is possible to frameserve into encoder, which is exactly what we need.
    This is because your not editing the MPEG. Your looking at frame contents, loaded into memory, but you cannot save those edits directly. It is not an editable format, which is why you must save a new file. It's not like an image file, which can be loaded, modified, and saved over the old.
    Originally Posted by dcsos
    but IF YOU JUST MERELY want to APPEND or TRUNCATE the streams..
    I BEG TO DIFFER
    I suppose you could call this editing. I would call it cutting and splicing. You are still not modifying the original mpeg. You are taking two cut ends, and joining them. TMPGenc does this poorly. For example, on a cut, it will continue to play video without audio, until it hits another I-Frame. When joined, if the tools does it properly, it will construct an I-frame at the joint/seam, but it is still not editing the stream frames directly. It is manually creating a new I-Frame to splice the two together.
    Impossible to see the future is. The Dark Side clouds everything...
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  20. Member geek rock's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by curritch
    I vote for storing miniDV avi files on DVD. DVD blanks are less than $2 a pop now and, at that price, they are as cheap as miniDV tape for archiving and are much more reliable. This way you have your original source video archived and can do anything you want to do in the future without any difficulty in editing or loss of quality.
    why not just keep your miniDV tapes to one side then?

    burning the avi's to DVD-ROM is a good idea, but you can only fit 15-20 minutes on a disc. you can pick up 60/90 min DV tapes for $5 or so..
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  21. Member
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    Originally Posted by TBoneit
    However having said that I make my DVDs and that is it. I keep the Vacation & wedding tapes as my backups. And others will disagree, free country.
    Remember though that the shelf life of magnetic tape is about 12 years.
    With the cost of blank media way down, I would say save the unedited video to a data DVD. Use a program like AVI_IO which caps in 4GB chunks, put one chunk on each DVD. If needed for editing, load all DVDs to hard drive and away you go.
    --
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  22. Member
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    [quote="geek rockwhy not just keep your miniDV tapes to one side then?/quote]

    The shelf life of a video tape is about 10-15 years. By 10 years it hasstarted to lose quality and may or may not be acceptable.
    --
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  23. Member DJRumpy's Avatar
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    Just another though. Blue Laser should be out this year. Although they will probably be prohibitively expensive at first, the meda will hold approx 26GB of data. If you wanted to keep your files in DV format (or even Huffman), this would do the trick.
    Impossible to see the future is. The Dark Side clouds everything...
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  24. Even though the shelf life of tape is around 12-15 years, it's in a digital format unlike analog. The data digital data won't degrade like analog and more data may survive. Anyway. DVD disc are getting cheaper and I save my .avi fo DVD disc. When I capture, I use scene detection so I can sort thru, toss the junk and keep what I want. The file sizes are managable enough to save to disc.
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  25. First off let me say I really appreciate all of your suggestions. However, after much expermentation, I have decided to use Windows Media Encoder and back my files up with it. I tried it out by encoding a file than importing it to Vegas Video, than exporting it to a DVD MPEG-2 compliant file and it looked great! I could also easily edit it with Vegas Video while it was in WMV and it was really easy, just like editing any DV AVI file. I encoded it using 3000 kbps and 192 kbps/48 khz with Windows Media Encoder. My original 6.1 GB DV file was compressed to 674 MB with no noticable loss of quality. Once again, thanks for all of your suggestions!
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  26. Member DJRumpy's Avatar
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    We probably should have suggested WMV as well. It's another MPEG-4 codec, like DivX, and XviD. I don't know why it's not used as much though. Since MS has opened the doors, so to speak, on the codecs, I don't know why it's not utilized more.
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  27. Member
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    geek rock. I do save my edited video on miniDV tape. But my camcorder has already been back to Canon because it began to damage tape. So I simply don't trust tape as the only media for archiving.
    Between tape, data DVD's and the compressed video on video DVD's I feel confortable that the video will survive in some form.
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  28. Member
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    If your files are from a miniDV source, then archive them back onto a miniDV tape. However, ALWAYS make a backup of this tape. Trust me, it's worth it for the sake for a fiver. And as it's all in DV format, it will be lossless between copies.
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  29. Member flaninacupboard's Avatar
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    i was backing up some DV AVI files just the other day. basically, i didn;t have enough HDD space to do the encoding i wanted, with all the DV files on there too. i backed up a set of DV AVI using virtual dub. set video to direct stream copy, and audio to off (using a sperate .wav anyway) and saved as segmented .avi at 1122.5 megs each. this way i fit 4 on a disc (using 4490megs) and keep the segments under two gigs so i have compatibility with fat32 and CCE2.5. Personally i'd rather use miniDV tapes, but what with not having a deck, this isn't really an option...
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  30. Take your DV files and compress them using ZIP or RAR, take the results and burn to DVD.

    You can easily fit a hours worth of DV footage on two DVDs and at todays media prices, that's $2 and hour.

    Hard to beat and you do not lose any quality.

    Just be prepared to spend a lot of time waiting on compression. It took about 10 minutes to compress a Gig with max compression using WinRar.
    WinZip took about 5 minutes.
    Just what is this reality thing anyway?
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