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  1. Lost Will Hay's Avatar
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    First of all ......
    I've been using Virtualdub for an age now, and having bought Pinnacle Studio 8 didn't see any reason why I shouldn't continue with Vdub for capturing anolgue footage (seeing as though I can't select the PicVideo codec in the capture options).
    I captured 45 mins of VHS-C camcorder footage via my ATI capture card, all perfect and then ran through Pinnacle Studio; adding titles, clipping scenes etc. quite simple stuff.
    I then used the encoder within Studio and created an mpeg2 file at 8000kb/sec, then imported that to Ulead Movie Maker (I've always used this - I have custom backgrounds set up) and burnt to dvd-r.
    Problem is, all the footage seems to be running slightly too fast, almost like the film is speeded up slightly.
    The audio is fine by the way, all in sync so I guess some frames have been missed.
    I tried it on a different cassette and sure enough it's running slightly too fast on that one too.
    Trouble is, the quality of capture with the PicVideo codec is far better than the 'best' setting when using Pinnacle Studio
    Anyone come across this, or should I simply capture and edit with the same program?
    Thanks,
    Will
    tgpo, my real dad, told me to make a maximum of 5,806 posts on vcdhelp.com in one lifetime. So I have.
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    having bought Pinnacle Studio 8 didn't see any reason why I shouldn't continue with Vdub for capturing anolgue footage
    Why do you thing Studio would be any better for capturing? What codec you're using when capturing with Studio?

    I haven't got any personal experiences with Studio, but from what i heard from a few friends of mine I've decided to stick away of it. VirtualDub works fine for me so why would i use anything else (well, actually I'm using VirtualDub VCR+synch version).

    The only thing I can say for sure about studio is that it creates really horrible looking SVCDs, maybe it's a bit better at DVD bitrates. And from what I heard, it's pretty slow in encoding too (even slower than TMPGEnc?)
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  3. Lost Will Hay's Avatar
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    Hi,
    Thanks for the reply.
    I don't think I made myself clear

    Originally Posted by RoopeT
    having bought Pinnacle Studio 8 didn't see any reason why I shouldn't continue with Vdub for capturing anolgue footage
    Why do you thing Studio would be any better for capturing? What codec you're using when capturing with Studio?

    I haven't got any personal experiences with Studio, but from what i heard from a few friends of mine I've decided to stick away of it. VirtualDub works fine for me so why would i use anything else (well, actually I'm using VirtualDub VCR+synch version).
    I've always used Vdub, I think it's wonderful.
    I haven't really tried to capture with Studio 8, I prefer Vdub.
    My problem is:
    When I capture with Vdub and author and encode with Pinnacle my footage is slightly too fast, almost like it's been speeded up.
    If I could use the PicVideo MJPEG codec in Studio 8 I would do, but I don't have that option (I can't quite remember the codec's that are listed, but the PicVideo one isn't one of them - the facility to 'list all codecs' is greyed out).
    I need Pinnacle to edit/author (I can use YMPGEnc to encode, yes) but I want to capture with the PicVideo codec, that is my problem
    When I use Vdub and then TMPGENc (ie. without editing with Pinnacle) the footage is fine.
    When I capture with Pinnacle and edit then encode the footage is fine, but not as good a quality as I would expect with PicVideo.
    Will
    tgpo, my real dad, told me to make a maximum of 5,806 posts on vcdhelp.com in one lifetime. So I have.
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    When I use Vdub and then TMPGENc (ie. without editing with Pinnacle) the footage is fine.
    So why do you want to use Pinnacle then? Can't you do the editing stages with Avisynth? Is there some fancy editing options in Studio you just can't live without and can't do with avisynth?
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  5. Member rhegedus's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Silky31
    I then used the encoder within Studio and created an mpeg2 file at 8000kb/sec, then imported that to Ulead Movie Maker (I've always used this - I have custom backgrounds set up) and burnt to dvd-r.
    Problem is, all the footage seems to be running slightly too fast, almost like the film is speeded up slightly.
    Could this be the dreaded Ulead synch problem rearing it's ugly head?

    Do a forum search with 'ulead' and 'synch' as keywords to see what I mean.

    I had loads of problems authoring DVD with Ulead. I tried the same mpeg2 sourve file with SpruceUp and it played perfectly.

    Regards,

    Rob
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  6. Lost Will Hay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RoopeT
    When I use Vdub and then TMPGENc (ie. without editing with Pinnacle) the footage is fine.
    So why do you want to use Pinnacle then? Can't you do the editing stages with Avisynth? Is there some fancy editing options in Studio you just can't live without and can't do with avisynth?
    I want to use Pinnacle because I choose to.
    Yes, I can live without Pinnacle but I choose to use it.
    I'm not familiar with avisynth.
    Is that clear?
    tgpo, my real dad, told me to make a maximum of 5,806 posts on vcdhelp.com in one lifetime. So I have.
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  7. Lost Will Hay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rhegedus
    Could this be the dreaded Ulead synch problem rearing it's ugly head? ....I had loads of problems authoring DVD with Ulead. I tried the same mpeg2 sourve file with SpruceUp and it played perfectly.
    Hey Rob!
    Thanks for the post.
    I did a little testing at lunch-time:
    I captured the same one minute clip using the following methods:

    Test 1) Captured with Pinnacle Studio, edited with Pinnacle Studio and encoded to mpeg2 with Pinnacle Studio - Result: Perfect

    Test 2) Captured with Virtualdub, edited with Pinnacle Studio and encoded to mpeg2 with Pinnacle Studio - Result: Same quality as test 1, but same problem as before ie. video running slightly quicker than original source capture.

    Test 3) Captured with Virtualdub and encoded to mpeg2 with TMPGEnc (no editing) - Result: Superb, best quality of all.

    Test 4) Captured with Pinnacle, saved as an edited avi, encoded to mpeg2 with TMPGEnc - Result: Perfect

    In all four cases I used Ulead Movie Maker 2 to author, simple menu, and output to a VIDEO_TS folder then burn with RecordNowMax!

    Having undertaken these simple tests I'm sure it's a Virtualdub/Pinnacle issue, although I will now be saving as an avi and encoding with TMPGEnc as I feel this is a better encoder than Pinnacle Studio.

    Test 3 was the better quality but meant I couldn't edit (unless I was prepared to live with the slightly faster playback problem - I'm not!).

    All I need to do now is capture using the Pinnacle software with my choice of codec, the PicVideo MJPEG
    Will
    tgpo, my real dad, told me to make a maximum of 5,806 posts on vcdhelp.com in one lifetime. So I have.
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  8. Member rhegedus's Avatar
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    Whoa! Slow down!

    First, check every capture avi for synch. If these are OK then you know it's not a capture/dropped frames issue.

    Next, check the encode mpeg2s for synch. If these are OK then the only thing it can be is the authoring ot the burning process.

    From your own results, test 3 (VirtualDub/TMPGEnc/MM2/RecordNow) was out of synch, so I can't see how it's a VirtualDub/Pinnacle issue.

    Sometimes UMM2 works, sometimes it doesn't. All my captures and encodes were in synch, but some of the authoring by MM2 was not. I now stay away from Ulead stuff since I don't want to spend any more time than I have to on making DVDs.

    Regards,

    Rob

    p.s. did you check the forums for the Ulead synch issue?
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  9. Lost Will Hay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rhegedus
    First, check every capture avi for synch. If these are OK then you know it's not a capture/dropped frames issue.
    I did that after each capture, they were fine.

    Originally Posted by rhegedus
    Next, check the encode mpeg2s for synch. If these are OK then the only thing it can be is the authoring ot the burning process.
    Done that, they are out of sync.
    When you say 'out of sync' are you meaning the audio doesn't match the video?
    If so, that's not my problem.
    The audio and video is in perfect sync but like I mentioned the video seems to be slightly fast in places.
    It's hard to accurately explain but it's almost as if the first frame is fine, the second frame is missing and the third frame lasts twice as long as it should, you understand what I mean?
    Therefore, a 25fps does indeed last one second, and as a result the audio matches the duration of the audio but the video just ain't quite right.

    Originally Posted by rhegedus
    From your own results, test 3 (VirtualDub/TMPGEnc/MM2/RecordNow) was out of synch, so I can't see how it's a VirtualDub/Pinnacle issue.

    Sorry, I got a bit carried away typing.
    I've since edited my post to reflect the actual tests, and you'll see the Vdub+TMPGEnc+UleadMF2+RNMax is the best one, a noticable increase in quality over PStudio8+PStudio8+PStudio8+RNMax.
    So, now I've managed to edit my post to a half-understandable format, you'll no doubt concur it must be the Pinnacle Studio mpeg2 encoding process that's screws up the final mpeg, as it doesn't happen if I use Pinnacle itself to capture.
    It only goes 'dicky' if I use Virtualdub to capture and then edit.
    Will
    tgpo, my real dad, told me to make a maximum of 5,806 posts on vcdhelp.com in one lifetime. So I have.
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  10. Member rhegedus's Avatar
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    I now see what you're getting at and agree that it must be a Pinnacle issue.

    Just a final point. Before you burn, can you check the authored vobs? i.e. play the files from your HD with PowerDVD or whatever. It'll exclude and burn problems that way.

    Regards,

    Rob
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  11. Lost Will Hay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rhegedus
    I now see what you're getting at and agree that it must be a Pinnacle issue.

    Just a final point. Before you burn, can you check the authored vobs? i.e. play the files from your HD with PowerDVD or whatever. It'll exclude and burn problems that way.
    As the final mpeg's demonstrate the same quirk as the final dvd-r, it's clearly a Pinnacle+Virtualdub issue.
    Thanks for your input Rob
    Will
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  12. Member MJPollard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Silky31
    Originally Posted by rhegedus
    I now see what you're getting at and agree that it must be a Pinnacle issue.

    Just a final point. Before you burn, can you check the authored vobs? i.e. play the files from your HD with PowerDVD or whatever. It'll exclude and burn problems that way.
    As the final mpeg's demonstrate the same quirk as the final dvd-r, it's clearly a Pinnacle+Virtualdub issue.
    Heck, I'll go out on a limb and say it's more of a Pinnacle problem than a VirtualDub problem. What is the exact version of Studio 8 you're using? There've been a few beta updates released to fix various problems.

    The trouble is, according to most of what I've read (and from some personal experience), Studio 8's nothing but one long series of problems, at least in the DVD authoring area. When the moon and stars are aligned just right, it works perfectly, but more often than not I can look forward to Studio either locking up or spontaneously closing itself during a render, among other problems.

    Nowadays, my copy of Studio is relegated mainly to creating AVIs of title/credit sequences, with maybe some quick-and-dirty editing. My editing is now done mainly with Sonic Foundry's Vegas 4.0, with DVD authoring split between SoFo's DVD Architect 1.0 and Ulead's DVD MovieFactory 2 (the latter for quick-and-dirty simple projects). I'm also keeping tabs on MediaChance's DVDLab; Oscar's done a real yeoman's effort with it, and it's not even in final release yet (I'm not using it right now mainly because it still has a problem with DVDs it produces locking up my standalone Panasonic DVD player). Future enhancements, like subtitle support, are gonna make DVDLab the authoring tool to have! Finally, rendering to MPEG2 is done with tried-and-true TMPGEnc Plus, as it's consistently given me excellent results.

    None of this probably helps you, but I'm bored to tears right now so I thought I'd ramble a bit. Thanks for indulging me.
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    Yes, I can live without Pinnacle but I choose to use it.
    I'm not familiar with avisynth.
    Is that clear?
    NO, it's not clear for me why you would want to use a combination of softwares that gives you problems, and yet there are freeware solution known to work ok.
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  14. Lost Will Hay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MJPollard
    None of this probably helps you, but I'm bored to tears right now so I thought I'd ramble a bit. Thanks for indulging me.
    Hey, thanks for rambling!

    Originally Posted by MJPollard
    The trouble is, according to most of what I've read (and from some personal experience), Studio 8's nothing but one long series of problems, at least in the DVD authoring area.
    I'm beginning to see yours and many other people's point.
    I'd decided it was a Pinnacle/Vdub problem even before I'd posted my original message, and as I'd used Vdub for years of course suspected the worse, yep, you guessed it, the software I'd paid for, not the excellent Vdub.
    Best bit is...
    ...Over the last twenty four hours I'd decided the best way to create my dvd-s from my VHS-C tapes is to do everything via Studio 8.
    I only have five, I've sold the camcorder they originated from and am currently lending the very same camcorder to transfer the footage to my pc.
    I think I may have mentioned it but I'm not exactly a professional when it comes to editing. Okay, I an get the best out of TMPGENC and Vdub, but up until ten days agao my video editing experience was nil.
    In fact, the word novice would have been a compliment!
    Anyway, over the last twent-four hours I've again captured all five 45min tapes, this time via Studio 8 rather than Vdub.
    This very night I'd just got halfway through editing the first tape when I realised there was massive, and I mean massive audio/video sync problems.
    I must admit I thought it strange when it was capturing, as whereas Vdub was reporting huge frame loss when there was no recording, ie blank tape, Studio 8 didn't lose one single frame.
    I reckon at the end of the 45 min tape the audio was some five minutes out in relation to the video!
    So, unless I can find another, user-friendly, editing packaage I'm afraid I'll be caturing (for the 3rd time) via Virtualdub and encoding with TMPGEnc (and clipping out the crap as I go using the source function - that's the best the editing of these particular tapes are going to be!)
    Again, thanks for the rambling!
    Will
    tgpo, my real dad, told me to make a maximum of 5,806 posts on vcdhelp.com in one lifetime. So I have.
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  15. Member rhegedus's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Silky31
    Originally Posted by rhegedus
    First, check every capture avi for synch. If these are OK then you know it's not a capture/dropped frames issue.
    I did that after each capture, they were fine.
    I'm now confused are you saying it is a capturing/frame drop problem? If so, how can the above be true?

    Regards,

    Rob
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  16. Lost Will Hay's Avatar
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    Hello

    Originally Posted by rhegedus
    Originally Posted by Silky31
    Originally Posted by rhegedus
    First, check every capture avi for synch. If these are OK then you know it's not a capture/dropped frames issue.
    I did that after each capture, they were fine.
    I'm now confused are you saying it is a capturing/frame drop problem? If so, how can the above be true?
    No, you misunderstand.
    My first dvd-r disk was created via Vdub+P-Studio8+UleadMF2+RNMax. These were captured fine but corrupted by Pinnacle Studio 8.
    I've captured tonight using Pinnacle Studio 8, and suffered massive audio sync problems.
    When I captured to avi using Vdub the only frame loss I suffered was when there was no footage on the tape.
    I've done further testing tonight which looks to have solved my problem, albeit adding a little time to the process but if it works I don't care.
    I'll report back in the morning
    Will
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  17. Member rhegedus's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Silky31
    Test 1) Captured with Pinnacle Studio, edited with Pinnacle Studio and encoded to mpeg2 with Pinnacle Studio - Result: Perfect
    Hmmmmmmmmmm............

    Regards,

    Rob
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  18. I just want to say that I capture with VirtualDub and then edit with Studio 8 and have no speed problems.

    Also a warning. If you do end up using picvideo you will find that the compressed avi may play perfectly but when rendered to a DVD the results may be dissapointing. If you go to the site for Huffyuv (which unlike picvideo, is a lossless codec) they explain that picvideo uses compression techniques that discard info that people can't percieve but that the result causes problems when encoded to mpg. I learned this the hard way.
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  19. I was wondering how you got Virtual dub to capture with the Studio 8 capture card. It keeps giving me an error 418 capture card not detected.

    I use scenelyzer to capture because Studio 8 has major A/V synch problems which they have refused to fix. I then use Studio 8 to author and burn, but I have only done this for VCD ans SVCD and it works great,

    thanks,
    diehard
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  20. Go to tools and get the wrapper:

    The VFW WDM Wrapper allows you to capture in for example Virtualdub if you only have WDM capture drivers(ATI Cards). Extract all files to a folder and right click on the .inf file and select install to install it. Freeware
    I think that will get VirtualDub working. Let me know if it does. (I get a warm fuzzy feeling if my advice actually helps someone)
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  21. Lost Will Hay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rhegedus
    Originally Posted by Silky31
    Test 1) Captured with Pinnacle Studio, edited with Pinnacle Studio and encoded to mpeg2 with Pinnacle Studio - Result: Perfect
    Hmmmmmmmmmm............
    Yeah, I can see where I haven't made myself particulary clear
    The initial tests I did were a one minute clip, all perfect video and no sync issues.
    When I'd decided to use Pinnacle for everythig, ie. capture, edit, and encode the 45 min footage I captured suffered major frame loss, I believe due to the fact that Pinnacle was correcting the audio to match the video.
    For example, of the 45 min tape (and please bear in mind I'm no video expert, these are tapes shot a few years ago) the first twenty is fine then, for whatever reason, there is no footage on the next five minutes. The rest of the tape, the 20 minutes, has perfectly good footage.
    What I believe happened is, as I used Pinnacle to capture the whole 45 minutes, it's captured the 5 mins of 'no film' and screwed up the audio and video sync.
    When Virtualdub captured the same footage, all 45 mins, it compensated for the lack of video in the 5 minute spell (I think because I uncheck the box which says 'lock video to audio').
    Is that a little clearer?
    You mentioned earlier it might be the dreaded 'Ulead Sync Problem' well, I think there is an issue with Pinnacle Studio 8 capturing anologue footage which is, shall we say, not of the best quality.
    tgpo, my real dad, told me to make a maximum of 5,806 posts on vcdhelp.com in one lifetime. So I have.
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  22. Lost Will Hay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by presto
    I just want to say that I capture with VirtualDub and then edit with Studio 8 and have no speed problems.
    I think, due to niavity perhaps, I've been making a major mistake in trying to achieve what I want.
    I think my first mistake is expecting Studio 8 to faultlessly capture the footage I have (bearing in mind the post above regarding part of the tape having no footage on).
    I think my second mistake, and probably the way I'm going to get round it is I couldn't capture with the MJPEG codec via PS8 so I was using Virtualdub and then using PS8 to edit and then encode to mpeg2.
    What I should have done is use Vdub to capture with the PIcVideo codec, PS8 to edit and then save as an .avi with the same codec I used in Vdub.
    Is this the best way?
    If so, I can then use TMPGEnc to encode (my preferred encoder) and Ulead Movie Factory/Studio 8 to author and burn.
    I tried a seven minute clip last night using this method and it didn't have the 'speeded up' issues I encountered before.
    My worry with this method is, whilst I'm pretty sure I'm using the same video codec in PS8 as I did in Vdub, I'm not entirely sure I'm using the same audio compression.
    I know I'm using PCM at 48000khz, but I'm unsure if the data rate (correct term), ie 172kb is the same as the one I used in Vdub.
    There doesn't seem to be any way within PS8 to determine this information.
    I don't want to effectly lose quality during initial capture and then compress again, after editing with PS8.
    Any thougts?

    Originally Posted by presto
    Also a warning. If you do end up using picvideo you will find that the compressed avi may play perfectly but when rendered to a DVD the results may be dissapointing. If you go to the site for Huffyuv (which unlike picvideo, is a lossless codec) they explain that picvideo uses compression techniques that discard info that people can't percieve but that the result causes problems when encoded to mpg. I learned this the hard way.
    Thanks for the warning, but I was under the impression huffyuv was was lossless codec, although not as bad as MJPEG.
    I have huffyuv yet I find the marginal quality increase is not worth the
    a) intensive CPU time and
    b) three times the file size of MJPEG quality 19/20
    Have you noticed a big improvement in quality from using huffyuv rather than MJPEG?
    Lastly, have you ever been able to capture with PS8 using a codec of your choice, or is this just not an option?
    Thanks,
    Will
    tgpo, my real dad, told me to make a maximum of 5,806 posts on vcdhelp.com in one lifetime. So I have.
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  23. Originally Posted by Silky31
    My worry with this method is, whilst I'm pretty sure I'm using the same video codec in PS8 as I did in Vdub, I'm not entirely sure I'm using the same audio compression.
    I know I'm using PCM at 48000khz, but I'm unsure if the data rate (correct term), ie 172kb is the same as the one I used in Vdub.
    There doesn't seem to be any way within PS8 to determine this information.
    I know.... this is one of the disatvateges of PS8. But.... you have Ulead program and their "Properties" should give you that info.... Try it.
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  24. Thanks for the warning, but I was under the impression huffyuv was was lossless codec, although not as bad as MJPEG.
    I have huffyuv yet I find the marginal quality increase is not worth the
    a) intensive CPU time and
    b) three times the file size of MJPEG quality 19/20
    Have you noticed a big improvement in quality from using huffyuv rather than MJPEG?
    Lastly, have you ever been able to capture with PS8 using a codec of your choice, or is this just not an option?
    I think you meant to say that Huffyuv is a lossy codec which is not true. Huffy is lossless.

    I have noticed little or no difference in quality between Huffyuv and MJPEG when playing the avi files. The problem is when you take the two avi files and make an mpg out of each of them. The Huffyuv one will look great and the PicVideo MJPEG will have a sort of strobing effect. The movement just looks horrible and to me is painful to watch.

    I have used the codec of my choice with S8 before but when I just checked the "list all codecs" button was greyed out. I am really confused about why that sometimes happens. I haven't figured that one out because I don't use S8 for capture due to sync issues any way.
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  25. Lost Will Hay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by silky31
    I think I'll test the huffyuv and see if I get the same thing.
    Okay, I tried with huffyuv.
    All captured fine, seemed to playback okay but a problem:
    When I capture with MJPEG, after I import to Pinnacle Studio 8 it automatically detects each scene break.
    Despite taking an age it doesn't with huffyuv.
    Shit.
    A real pain to edit if it doesn't automatically detect scene breaks
    Will
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  26. Oops, I forgot to mention that scene detection doesn't seem to work with Huffyuv. It's always something isn't it? For me scene detection was finding too many scenes (when I didn't use Huffyuv) and it turned out to be easier to just scroll thru and make my own scene breaks.
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  27. Lost Will Hay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by presto
    Oops, I forgot to mention that scene detection doesn't seem to work with Huffyuv. It's always something isn't it? For me scene detection was finding too many scenes (when I didn't use Huffyuv) and it turned out to be easier to just scroll thru and make my own scene breaks.
    At least I know it's something I haven't done wrong.
    As I've spent far too long doing this, and considering the fact I only have eight VHS-C tapes to do, I'm going to:
    1) Capture with Virtualdub, 720 x 576 PicVideo MJPEG 19/20
    2) Edit with Pinnacle and save as an avi (using the same codec as above, obviously!)
    3) Encode with TMPGENC Plus at 8000CBR
    4) Author with Ulead Movie Factory 2
    5) Burn with RecordNowMax!
    I know it's not the best route, but I'll always have the tapes and can always do it again (OMG, what a horrible thought!)
    Thanks for all your input folks,
    Will
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  28. Lost Will Hay's Avatar
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    I don't suppose any of you wonderful, helpful and kind people could help me with this, could you?
    If so, thanks.
    If not, thanks for looking
    Will
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  29. Lost Will Hay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Silky31
    As I've spent far too long doing this, and considering the fact I only have eight VHS-C tapes to do, I'm going to:
    1) Capture with Virtualdub, 720 x 576 PicVideo MJPEG 19/20
    2) Edit with Pinnacle and save as an avi (using the same codec as above)
    Okay, so I changed my mind, I went with huffyuv and I'm having major problems
    Will
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