Help with VHS Capture Setup

[DoDanger]

I have a collection of old VHS home movies that I want to digitize for archival purposes. These tapes are nearly twenty years old and priceless to me. So I'm a bit paranoid about getting the best possible capture. I'm not interested in any “quick fixes” here, and willing to learn/buy whatever I need to get the job done right. I'm an advanced computer user, so I have no problem going deep into the software side of things. But the hardware setup is really the area I need help with.

The footage was recorded on an RCA DSP3 (model CC417) that captures directly to standard VHS tapes.



Years ago a bought a Canopus ADVC-300 and JVC HR-S5902U for capturing, but never really got around to using them. I now know that I really need to get some kind of TBC as well.




Is any of this equipment good enough for what I want? What else should I get? What's the best way to go about doing the conversion? I've been reading a lot about it, but I still have questions about certain particulars.


1. Is it better to use a pro-grade VCR with TBC, or my original camcorder with a TBC standalone device? I've read that you should capture from the original device whenever possible, but the camcorder has not been well cared for. It's never eaten a tape, but I wouldn't trust it not to, and the heads may have been damaged. However, last time a checked the tapes did seem to have better tracking when played directly from the camcorder, I think.

2. Since the footage was captured on a standard VHS tape I'm assuming it's best to capture it using a composite video connection, rather then an S-video connection (if using a VCR with that option).

[hech54]

I'd go S-Video, it's just easier.

[DoDanger]

I'd go S-Video, it's just easier.

That's what I've used so far when testing, but the ADVC-300 has a special "3D" noise filter feature that works only with composite signals. So I'm thinking this might give better results then just "converting" it to s-video. Guess I just need to test it out.

Edit: I also wouldn't be able to use s-video if capturing from the camcorder itself.

[Brad]

S-Video is closer to the original storage method on the tape, and closer to the format that the video will be captured in digitally. Using composite forces two unnecessary conversions.

I don't see anything in the ADVC-300's manual that indicates its 3D noise filter is limited to composite input. That would be dumb. 3D Y/C separation is limited to composite input, because S-Video natively carries Y/C separated.

[DoDanger]

S-Video is closer to the original storage method on the tape, and closer to the format that the video will be captured in digitally. Using composite forces two unnecessary conversions.

Interesting... Can you further explain why this is the case, or link me to more information about it? I know that composite suffers from low-pass filtering in comparison to S-video. Are you saying that the VHS footage is captured at a better quality than the composite signal can output? I guess that would mean I should use a VCR with S-video out, instead of the original camcorder with only composite out?

I don't see anything in the ADVC-300's manual that indicates its 3D noise filter is limited to composite input. That would be dumb. 3D Y/C separation is limited to composite input, because S-Video natively carries Y/C separated.

I must've been confusing the noise filtering with the automatic Y/C separation for composite. Thanks for pointing that out!

The ADVC-300 seems to have all the necessary features I need for the best possible capture (line time-based correction, 3-D noise reduction, etc.) But is the VCR I currently have, good enough?

[2Bdecided]

From reading other threads, I don't think the 300's line TBC is that good. One in a decent S-VHS VCR would usually be better. I could be wrong.

While composite can carry all the information from VHS, it does mean combining and then splitting the luma+chroma. It's separate on tape. It's separate on S-Video. It's combined on composite. It's separate on every digital format you are likely to use. It shouldn't matter, but if the separation in the capture device isn't perfect, you might see a different. All the better VCRs (even for VHS capture) are S-VHS models, so have S-video.

Cheers,
David.

[manono]

From reading other threads, I don't think the 300's line TBC is that good. One in a decent S-VHS VCR would usually be better. I could be wrong.

You're not wrong. It's either non-existent or so weak as to be useless. I have an ADVC-300 and could never understand how Canopus or Grass Valley could even get away with claiming it has a functioning line TBC. Yes, he should go with either a line TBC in an S-VHS VCR or use a DVD-recorder with one in pass-through mode.

[DoDanger]

Here's a few caps from some footage I captured with the ADVC-300 and JVC HR-S5902U a while ago. I'm wondering if these lines are something a TBC should fix, or if it's just damage to the tapes from age, etc. ? I suspect the VCR might be at fault too since I seem to remember having issues with its auto-tracking feature, but most of these tapes are from 1996!

[LMotlow]

The "lines" are usually present in interlaced frames, especially when something moves. The effect is called "combing". VHS tape is interlaced. For DVD or standard definition BluRay output, the encoding standard is interlaced. TV's, most disc players, and many PC media players deinterlace during play. Most computer NLE's, editors, Virtualdub, etc., don't deinterlace the display. An interlaced frame contains two fields, or two images, from two instances in time. An interlaced video rated at 29.97 frames per second actually plays 59.94 fields per second.

There are signs of line sync errors, which can be avoided with a line tbc. In these shots it looks rather mild, but it will be more obvious during play. Look at the left side border, especially in the lower image. It isn't perfectly straight and solid and likely will ripple a little during play. Line timing errors result in ripples in vertical and angular edges.

[DoDanger]

Sorry for the bad description. I understand the basic concept of interlaced video, but I appreciate your detailed explanation. I guess I was really trying to ask about the sync errors. Most of the footage is okay, but I can see these sync errors or "lines" in some of it. So I guess this means the ADVC-300 doesn't have a TBC after all?

[LMotlow]

I'm looking at your images on a calibrated monitor now (I was using a laptop before. Can't see a damn thing in detail on a laptop display!!). The white lines along the top appear to be signs of tape damage. They seem to change shape with different frames. Do they appear on all your captures from all tapes? BTW, that's not a line sync problem, although you can see sync errors elsewhere.

I don't know why people keep saying the cap device has a line tbc. If so, it doesn't accomplish much. But the general consensus is that the advertising is wishful thinking. We see caps from that card all the time, same results.

[DoDanger]

I'm not sure if these issues are on all the tapes, but I've seen it on a few of them. They were stored in a hot (non air conditioned) storage unit for a few months many years ago, and I've wondered if this might have caused some damage. I can upload video footage too, if you think that would help any.

[LMotlow]

A sample video is far better for analysis than still captures. A few seconds can be uploaded directly to the forum with the "manage attachments" icon below the reply window. If the video is AVI, open it in VirtualDub, clip out a few seconds, then save it using "Direct stream copy" to prevent further changes in compression or colorspace. Give the clip enough time time to uplaod (yeah, the uploader can be a bit pokey sometimes).

[DoDanger]

Thanks for all the help. The attachment feature confuses me some cause the "Upload Files" option seems completely separate from "My Files" thing, so I have to upload it there and then just copy the link over here.

Anyway, here's a sample clip of one shot that suffers a lot. Most of the other shots on the tape have much less to zero issues. This particular VHS tape is comprised of a lot of different shots, where I hit record/stop many times for each take. I was too young to know any better techniques But this probably took its toll on the camera.

[DoDanger]

So I just tried uploading the clip to "Manage attachments" as well, and I'm now assuming it should just appear below when I hit submit, even though I don't see anything attached.

Here goes nothing!

*click*

[jagabo]

I'm pretty sure one of the old Panasonic ES-xx DVD recorders will eliminate most of those horizontal time base errors.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-wh...=1#post1983288

Maybe not the bigger one. If they don't appear in exactly the same place every time you can use multiple caps along wtih a median-of-three or median-of-five filter. That may clear up a bunch of the time base errors.

Also, if you haven't done so already, fast forward your tapes to the end and rewind them to the beginning a few times to smooth out and loosen the windings. That may give you smoother transport while playing/capturing.

Since I didn't have three caps to play with, and your source started out with a largely still shot, and most of the lines don't appear in the same place on successive frames, I ran a median-of-3 filter using the same video shifted by one frame and two frames. You can see that most of the horizontal lines are gone in the attached result.

[Brad]

I don't see horizontal time base errors, but I am shocked by how visible the DCT artifacts are.

Aren't these just good old RF dropouts affecting whole lines?

[DoDanger]

So is this just tape damage that a TBC would not help?

I've now read that the very best setup is to use an S-VHS VCR (with TBC) with a standalone TBC. Since each offers different benefits. I guess this means I'm going to get a standalone TBC first, and try that with my current (non TBC) S-VCR. However, I'd like to also get a video capture card. So I can see the difference between DV and Lossless footage for myself. Is there any kind of consensus on if the DV format really effects VHS footage quality in a meaningful way? My main focus is on quality, but I'm not sure if going lossless is really worth it.

The AVToolbox AVT-8710 seems to be my only option for a standalone TBC, so I guess that's what I'll get.
Does anyone have any recommendations for a good lossless PC video capture card?

[jagabo]

I would get the DVD recorder before the full frame TBC. It's cheaper (though more risky since you'll be buying used) and the models that are mentioned around here are more effective. By the way, if you watch the output of the VHS deck on the TV do you see the same horizontal glitches? TVs are much more forgiving of time base errors.

There's very little difference between a raw video capture device and a DV capture device as far as VHS is concerned.

Both capture the luma channel (greyscale image) at 720x480. DV captures the chroma channels (colors) at 180x480 whereas raw YUY2 (or other YUV 4:2:2 format) captures the chroma at 360x480. But VHS only has about 40x480 chroma resolution. So both are sufficient for VHS. Just be sure to use a DV decoder that interpolates the chroma rather than duplicating it.

The other drawback with DV is the added DCT blocking and ringing. DCT blocking is minimal because DV doesn't compress very much. And VHS is so noisy that a little DCT ringing noise won't be noticed.

The remaining differences are device specific. Ie, a good DV device will give you better results than a poor YUY2 device, and vice versa. In theory you can squeeze a little more quality out of YUY2 but

[Brad]

And VHS is so noisy that a little DCT ringing noise won't be noticed.

Buuuut look at the transition between the trees and sky! Does DV always have problems with a high-contrast change like that, is it the fault of Canopus?

There are also horizontal lines in the sky that are basically stationary.

Greyscale().LanczosResize(1280,960) to show it's not a color issue.


Greyscale().Bob().LanczosResize(1280,960) on a later frame.

[jagabo]

That's a little more noise than I would expect from DV's DCT ringing. Did you use a sharpening resizer when you upscaled? That would accentuate the artifacts.

[DoDanger]

@jagabo: I'm assuming you're suggesting I use a DVD recorder as a pass-through TBC device? I believe I've read that those aren't much better than something like the ADVC-300. I'm also a little confused because some of you seem to be saying these are time-based errors, while others are saying it's not?!

The footage was captured in 2009 and I can't remember if I adjusted any settings on the ADVC-300. I might have... I also no longer own a TV, so previewing it on one is impossible. But like I said before, I think the camcorder might have given better playback, however, that might just be from the tapes not being as old then.

[Brad]

Did you use a sharpening resizer when you upscaled? That would accentuate the artifacts.

I said what I used. They're not as visible with bilinear, but after my experience trying to find examples for 2Bdecided's thread I didn't expect to see obvious, dancing mosquitoes like these during playback.

Greyscale().BilinearResize(1280,960)

The footage was captured in 2009 and I can't remember if I adjusted any settings on the ADVC-300.

Maybe post some newly-captured footage from a tape that doesn't exhibit this particular rolling-line artifact so we can judge how well the ADVC-300 is handling general horizontal timebase errors. An EP mode recording of something that should show straight vertical lines would be the easiest to see.

I can tell you that I see the type of artifact you've posted in my DMR-ES15/25 captures, though I don't think I've come to a tape with this level of error yet. So I don't believe they will correct these at all.

[manono]

@jagabo: I'm assuming you're suggesting I use a DVD recorder as a pass-through TBC device? I believe I've read that those aren't much better than something like the ADVC-300.

Then you either didn't read or didn't understand this from earlier in this same thread:

From reading other threads, I don't think the 300's line TBC is that good. One in a decent S-VHS VCR would usually be better. I could be wrong.

You're not wrong. It's either non-existent or so weak as to be useless. I have an ADVC-300 and could never understand how Canopus or Grass Valley could even get away with claiming it has a functioning line TBC. Yes, he should go with either a line TBC in an S-VHS VCR or use a DVD-recorder with one in pass-through mode.

[DoDanger]

@jagabo: I'm assuming you're suggesting I use a DVD recorder as a pass-through TBC device? I believe I've read that those aren't much better than something like the ADVC-300.

Then you either didn't read or didn't understand this from earlier in this same thread:

My question was directed at jagabo, not you. I understood your post just fine, but it doesn't answer my question as to how much better a DVD recorder TBC is over the ADVC-300. The article: What is a TBC?, says 'This is where we start to enter the land of "it's a TBC because we wrote it on the box".' In regards to a DVD Recorder 'TBC'. Which is very similar to the claims against the ADVC-300. You apparently have experience in this area, so perhaps you could address that question?

I would get the DVD recorder before the full frame TBC. It's cheaper (though more risky since you'll be buying used) and the models that are mentioned around here are more effective.

Actually the first recommended DVD recorder I found (Panasonic DMR-ES10) was $250 used on Amazon, and I understand it goes on average for around $200. So this particular model would only be slightly more/less than a standalone TBC for about $225. So if I had to pick just one (regardless of cost), would the DVD recorder TBC really be better than a standalone TBC?

In theory, it seems like a dedicated TBC device would do a better job than a multipurpose device, since the TBC feature really just becomes an add-on then. But maybe I'm completely mistaken.

[Brad]

eBay prices for the DMR-ES10 are $45-114 shipped, or $200 new open-box. Amazon Marketplace always seems to be crazily overpriced for used electronics. I guess partly because they take a bigger cut.

[manono]

My question was directed at jagabo, not you.

Okay, point taken. But I own both an ADVC-300 and a Panasonic DMR-ES15 DVD recorder which I've used before in pass-through mode. So I know a little bit about the subject. In addition, while that TBC article is a very good one, the author is, in my opinion, dead wrong about the DVD recorders not being very good as line TBCs and he has his own personal set of biases. Didn't jagabo already point you to the long thread with examples of the results of using DVD recorders as pass-through devices in the capture chain? The evidence is all in there.

...it doesn't answer my question as to how much better a DVD recorder TBC is over the ADVC-300.

Since the ADVC-300 does nothing or next to nothing about straightening out squiggly horizontal lines in a capture, I'd say the right DVD recorder used as a pass-through device is infinitely better. I usually use an S-VHS VCR with a built-in line TBC to capture losslessly these days, but the DVD recorder gives similar results. I think it softens the picture a little bit, but I'm not entirely sure about that as I haven't used it all that much. Again, though, the long DVD recorder thread has all the evidence.

And if jagabo wants to reply and elaborate or even contradict me, I'm fine with that. I'm more of a user and take what I learn here and elsewhere and use it, often without doing my own testing and comparing. If it works I keep it. But I do a helluva lot of capping of old VHS tapes.

[DoDanger]

Thanks for elaborating Manono, I appreciate you taking the time to further explain your experiences. There seems to be quite a few conflicting opinions as to the "best" devices/practices for capturing VHS, but I hope to learn enough to make my own educated guess.

In the What is a TBC? article the author does agree that a DVD recorder is better than a DV converter box, but he also thinks a standalone TBC is better than a DVD recorder. From what I've read in the DVD recorder thread they do improve the output almost as much as an S-VCR with TBC, but I guess I'm wondering now if a standalone TBC would do it even better? Has anyone done a comparison of DVD recorder TBC vs Standalone TBC? I'm willing to pay more for a device that will improve the quality.

[manono]

...but I guess I'm wondering now if a standalone TBC would do it even better?

Since you read the TBC article then you should know that the standalone TBC of which you speak is a different animal entirely. I'll assume you're referring to the AVToolbox or DataVideo boxes as mentioned in the article. I own an AVToolbox AVT-8710 and rarely use it. None of my tapes are macrovision protected and rarely are the tapes so messed up that they need what a full-frame TBC does. A line TBC, on the other hand, is essential in my opinion, whether in the VCR or the DVD recorder.

If you're thinking of getting a standalone box with a line TBC, they're absurdly expensive.

[DoDanger]

I own an AVToolbox AVT-8710 and rarely use it.

I'm curious to know why you don't just leave it in the device chain when capturing? Since each offers its own advantages It would seem practical to always use both to ensure the best possible quality. Regardless of if the tape really needs it.

Signal degeneration, perhaps?

A line TBC, on the other hand, is essential in my opinion, whether in the VCR or the DVD recorder.

If you're thinking of getting a standalone box with a line TBC, they're absurdly expensive.

I'd be more than willing to take that AVT-8710 off your hands for free if you really think it's that useless.

I have zero experience here, but I still don't understand how an external DVD recorder can be almost as good as an internal VCR TBC, While an external DV converter box is terrible. One issue I've also thought of with the DVD recorder thread is that most of the tests there seem to have been captured on a pro-grade S-VCR with the TBC turned off, but it's probably still affecting the final results. So I'm wondering if this might be making the DVD recorder results seem better than they are. I wonder what would happen if I tried the same DVD recorder with my JVC HR-S5902U.

Maybe I should just forget it all and simply get a better S-VCR with TBC? I'm going to be checking out some resale shops in the area, but I'm sure I'd be extremely lucky to find anything "pro-grade" there.