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  1. Member
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    I'm looking for a camcorder, mainly to shoot models and dancers See my work in the last five galleries at pnart.com (warning: some NSFW). I will probably also travel with it and use it for personal work. I have a D800 which takes great, almost cinematic quality, video but I can't stand the ergonomics of shooting video with an SLR. So I want a camcorder form factor, and something small enough to shoot run-n-gun style with.

    I was looking at the Canon XA20 - it's small and light and cheap (~$2000 in the US), and it's got a 20X zoom, and built-in overcranking for 60p at full HD. But after looking at hours of videos made with it I've come to two conclusions:
    1. Videos taken with it have that "tiny sensor look" - too much depth of field ( everything is in focus at the same time) and too little dynamic range ( blown-out highlights on many sunny-day shots, and loss of shadow detail).
    2. The lens has lots of visible CA, vignetting, and lens-flare. Look: making a 20X zoom requires a ton of compromise. I've got professional 3X zooms for my DSLRs that cost more than the entire XA20. Trying to make the entire camcorder, lens and all, come in at that price requires cutting many corners.

    So what would be a step up if I was willing to part with more cash, ($3K? $4K?) but I still want to retain a relatively small light camcorder format? ( a little bigger is OK, but nothing that requires a shoulder mount or wearing special gear) I'm looking for a slightly bigger sensor, and better quality optics (10x zoom is OK) and I don't want to lose the overcranking in the camera. I don't need interchangable lenses or a huge sensor, just bigger than the XA20. Here's a sensor size chart: http://www.gizmag.com/camera-sensor-size-guide/26684/pictures#1

    Thanks in advance.
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  2. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    if you have a canon dslr and lenses you could go with a blackmagic 4k cam. use the small f-stop canon lenses for shallow dof.
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  3. This is such a matter of personal preference I'm reluctant to give advice. You can go to http://www.bhphotovideo.com and search under camcorders both home and professional and use their excellent site search tools to narrow it down. It gives you a good sense of the "universe."
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  4. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    sorry missed the d800 part - must be a nikon person. the blackmagic 4k video cam has a canon lens mount.
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    Originally Posted by aedipuss View Post
    if you have a canon dslr and lenses you could go with a blackmagic 4k cam. use the small f-stop canon lenses for shallow dof.
    I don't think you read my post.
    Last edited by plnelson; 28th Feb 2014 at 23:17.
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    Originally Posted by smrpix View Post
    This is such a matter of personal preference I'm reluctant to give advice. You can go to http://www.bhphotovideo.com and search under camcorders both home and professional and use their excellent site search tools to narrow it down. It gives you a good sense of the "universe."
    Which ones have bigger sensors isn't subjective or personal. But I didn't see any place on B&H where you could search or sort on sensor size - did I overlook something? And how would I use B&H to assess optical quality of lenses? Getting opinions about that is why people ask questions on forums.

    So what is YOUR personal opinion about which camcorder would have a bigger sensor and better optics than the XA20, and in-camera overcranking for 60p at 1080x1920, and is still small enough to hand-hold?
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    Originally Posted by aedipuss View Post
    sorry missed the d800 part - must be a nikon person. the blackmagic 4k video cam has a canon lens mount.
    You also missed the part about saying I wanted a camcorder form factor. If I'm going to shoot from a tripod I can always use my D800.

    I also don't see any benefit to 4K. I don't think 4K will be more than a tiny niche market because for a human being to see the difference between HD and UHD you'd need a huge screen and still have to sit really close to it, plus the entire image pipeline between camera and screen would have to be pristine (better optics, less compression, wider bandwidth, etc). Consumers aren't going to spend big bucks for something they can't see any improvement for. 4K will be like tube audio amps - a few purists and rich people will be into it but the mass market will ignore it.
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  8. B&H is very reliable at listing sensor size and type when it is provided by the manufacturer. Look under specifications or compare. "Form factor" varies widely within the camcorder category. I'm not trying to be dismissive, far from it, but nobody can tell you whether you are willing to compromise sensor size for optics or stability for weight.

    What I'm suggesting is that you narrow it down to 3 or 4 reasonable choices and then come back for a specific discussion. I often start my BH searches by selecting canon, Panasonic and sony and a price range -- usually a little higher than what I actually want to spend.
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  9. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by plnelson View Post
    Originally Posted by aedipuss View Post
    sorry missed the d800 part - must be a nikon person. the blackmagic 4k video cam has a canon lens mount.
    You also missed the part about saying I wanted a camcorder form factor. If I'm going to shoot from a tripod I can always use my D800.

    I also don't see any benefit to 4K. I don't think 4K will be more than a tiny niche market because for a human being to see the difference between HD and UHD you'd need a huge screen and still have to sit really close to it, plus the entire image pipeline between camera and screen would have to be pristine (better optics, less compression, wider bandwidth, etc). Consumers aren't going to spend big bucks for something they can't see any improvement for. 4K will be like tube audio amps - a few purists and rich people will be into it but the mass market will ignore it.
    you dismiss the bm4k because it doesn't look like a consumer videocam? how about the red videocams? are they also beneath you because they're square boxy and ugly too? did you read the specs on the bm4k, as it has a full super35mm sensor, a global shutter and 12 stops of dynamic range. shoots 4k or 2k at up to 880mbps. maybe none of that means anything to you but you should read about what a makes a good videocam and it's not that it looks like a sony handycam.
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    Originally Posted by aedipuss View Post
    Originally Posted by plnelson View Post
    Originally Posted by aedipuss View Post
    sorry missed the d800 part - must be a nikon person. the blackmagic 4k video cam has a canon lens mount.
    You also missed the part about saying I wanted a camcorder form factor. If I'm going to shoot from a tripod I can always use my D800.

    I also don't see any benefit to 4K. I don't think 4K will be more than a tiny niche market because for a human being to see the difference between HD and UHD you'd need a huge screen and still have to sit really close to it, plus the entire image pipeline between camera and screen would have to be pristine (better optics, less compression, wider bandwidth, etc). Consumers aren't going to spend big bucks for something they can't see any improvement for. 4K will be like tube audio amps - a few purists and rich people will be into it but the mass market will ignore it.
    you dismiss the bm4k because it doesn't look like a consumer videocam?
    Where did I say anything about looks? Seriously, how did you get that from the OP?

    The problem is that it doesn't have the ergonomics of a camcorder. For example, it doesn't have a articulatable vf. (or any vf at all for the little bm), it doesn't have a place for a shotgun mike, it doesn't have a top handle, it doesn't have XLR connectors, etc. It's designed to be used on a tripod or slide, with a bunch of wires to connect to accessories, whereas I clearly said I need to do run-n-gun shooting.

    And I don't know why you say "consumer" - there are $3K, $4K, $5K and higher-priced camcorders that have all those things. Consumers don't buy that kind of gear.
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