DVD Recorder Cleaning

[Maldez]

I own a Pioneer Elite DVD recorder purchased new several years ago. It has never had any maintenance of any type done and has always worked great until recently. It is starting to have little freezes now and then and little green/red splotches of what I think is called pixelation during play-back of what I've recorded. No problems with pre-recorded stuff.

This is probably a dumb question, but are DVD recorders supposed to be cleaned, like VCRs were? Or is my Pioneer just getting old?

Thx for any help.

[V Bot]

Not a dumb question. Yes, they should be cleaned. I own a Panasonic and an Ilo DVD Recorder. I have taken them apart for cleaning. I had to replace the drive in the Ilo. I used Q Tips and alcohol for cleaning. Be very gentle if you decide to clean the lens. I understand Denatured Alcohol is better because it doesn't leave a residue. I haven't had any issues with every day alcohol, so I use it. Another possibility is the media you are using.

[Maldez]

Thanks...so the way to do it is open the recorder up and do some sort of self-service with q-tips and alcohol? Aren't there some sort of discs you can insert into the recorder that do the cleaning for you?

As for the media I'm using the same Verbatim RW discs I bought a bulk of when I got my machine. Can media age to the point of it not recording well anymore?

Thx again for your feedback.

[usually_quiet]

I do not know what symptoms indicate that the lens is dirty, but DVD lens cleaning discs have a tiny brush attached that dusts the lens. The consensus is that those can scratch the lens, so opening the drive and doing a very gentle cleaning as V Bot suggested is safer.

When the parts near the spindle that grip the disc need cleaning, the player makes a loud moaning or grinding noise. I clean those parts with 90% isopropyl alcohol and a cotton swab. Opening up an optical drive can be difficult. orsetto, our resident Pioneer expert would know whether this is advisable or not for your model. There is a better chance that he will see it if it were moved to the DVD recorder forum, where it belongs. I'm asking a mod to do that.

[johns0]

Thread moved to the proper forum.

[orsetto]

Pioneer made several recorder models under the "Elite" line, Maldez, can you tell us which you have? I believe there was one very early (2001-2002) model which was DVD-only, no HDD, and VERY expensive (one of the first consumer DVD recorders). After that I think came an Elite 57 and a similar sister model, more modern units with built in HDD and primitive TiVO functionality.

The early unit without HDD is ridiculously obsolete at this point: if thats the one you have its burner has outlived its expected lifespan by at least five years, and when you run out of the obsolete blank discs it needs there are no more being sold. I would not attempt to disassemble these for cleaning, the drive is likely booby trapped with Pioneer's infamous CPRM interlocks. With a recorder this old, you have nothing to lose trying a cleaner DVD: it probably won't work, but might. If a cleaning disc fails, give the unit a proper burial: its dead.

The Elite TiVo/DVD models are a generation newer and use more common generic burners identical to those sold for PCs of the day, in most cases the burner model is DVR-106 or DVR-AO6. Pioneer generally did not use their annoying booby traps in the old TiVo models, because it interfered with the TiVo software. You should be able to remove the burner, open it up, and blow out/carefully swab the lens area. The burner is not difficult to open, its just a number of steps. I would not necessarily bother with trying to clean it: old Pioneer burners are pretty well sealed against dirt and grime issues. Your problem is more likely the laser is dying of old age: Pioneers' 2002-era burners typically croaked by 2008, so yours is way past its expiration date. Considering the work involved in removing the burner and opening it for cleaning, you may as well go all the way and just put in a replacement burner.

I haven't had an Elite on my workbench in quite a few years, so I'm not absolutely positive which burner it has inside. I'm fairly sure its DVR-106, as the Elites were top of the line above companion Pioneer 310, 510 and 810 non-Elites which used the 106. If you take the outer cover off the recorder, you should be able to read the white info label on top of the burner. It will be named something weird like DVR-R06-XP, the number in the middle will indicate what the generic equivalent would be (06 anywhere would be DVR-106/DVR-AO6, ditto 04, 05 or 07 being DVR-104, DVR-105, DVR-107).

Once you know the burner model needed, you can stalk eBay and PC surplus dealers for a burner thats still in good functional condition. If you need an 06 series, run searches for DVR-106, DVR-A06, and Memorex Dual X-1 (a relabeled 106). These typically sell for $20-30. Once you have a replacement burner, follow my instructions at this link to swap the internal circuit boards so the new burner runs off the special recorder board. Its much easier to do than describe in words, so don't be intimidated. My instructions in that thread were for a slightly newer Pioneer recorder, so I refer to "Pioneer 531 recorder" and "DVR-109" instead of "Elite 57H" and "DVR-106." Overlook that, the process is exactly the same.

Bear in mind we are discussing very old DVD recorders that rely on way-obsolete burners. The old 106 burner is not particularly well-suited to burning current blank disc formulations, and even if you could track down a new, never used spare 106 burner there's no guarantee it might not die on you within a couple months: older burners can deteriorate even if they sit unused (sometimes this is worse than using them a lot). If it were me, I'd just try a cleaning DVD, and if that doesn't work give your Elite a decent burial and get another recorder. The only real choice left is the Magnavox MDR513, at approx $169 including shipping from J&R. I and many others have bought these, they have much more modern burners, larger HDDs and 16:9 DTV tuners. Not nearly as elegant as an Elite, but they get the job done and are compatible with todays unpredictable blanks. The Magnavox has been discontinued, and as supplies run out price gouging by speculators is running rampant: I suggest you grab one from J&R while they are still available cheap (batches arrive at J&R every week or so). There are wild rumors the Magnavox may get replaced with a BluRay/HDD upgrade model within the next few months, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Good luck to you, whatever you decide.

[lordsmurf]

I don't really agree with the concept of "too old" or "obsolete".

But it does matter which specific model is being discussed.
- Some models are excellent, and should be babied and repaired as long as possible.
- Other models need to be shot and buried, replaced by something better.

[Maldez]

Orsetto, thanks so much for the VERY THOROUGH response! My particular Pioneer Elite is the DVR-7000, which was considered a very high end model, and is probably the most gorgeous DVD recorder I've ever seen. I believe it was first manufactured in the early 2000s, and I probably got mine around 2003-04, when the prices for it began dropping. I think I paid around $700 for it, compared to the original list price of about $2,000.

It's an extremely well made unit that has always worked flawlessly until just recently. It now has slight freeze-ups and pixelations when playing back its own recent recordings. Playbacks of everything else is fine.

So, I will be very sad if I have to put my lovely old Pioneer to pasture, but I will try your suggestion of a DVD cleaner. I will also try some brand new media to see if that makes a difference. The discs I'm using now are Verbation -RWs that were purchased in bulk when I first bought the Pioneer several years ago.

Thanks again for taking the time to offer such a detailed response. Very much appreciated!

[jjeff]

Just to add, RW discs can and do wear out. I wouldn't expect to get much more than 50 rewrite cycles and have had some last not much more than 10 rewrites before pixelating. Verbatim is a good brand though so you may be experiencing the higher end. AVOID the most prolific brand, Memorex and stick with the slowest X you can find, 2x would be best.
I almost purchased a 7000 several years back and agree with you that it was just about the most gorgeous DVDR ever made, as the saying goes, They don't make 'em like that anymore
Personally I've ruined a few DVD/CD palyers over the years by trying to clean the lens by hand(of course the machines were already acting up so maybe it wasn't so much my cleaning) but I agree with Orsetto that a lens cleaning disc wouldn't hurt and may help(I've actually had good luck with using them occasionally for skipping players). As a Panasonic owner I'm quite familiar with cleaning the spindle of my machines but have been told they are next to impossible to clean on Pionnners and they generally don't need cleaning like Pannys. Groaning while editing or finalizing is a common symptom of a dirty spindle, not so much pixelating which is generally caused by a dirty or failing laser/lens.
Good luck with your classic Pio, I almost had one but just couldn't pull the trigger.

[orsetto]

Orsetto, thanks so much for the VERY THOROUGH response! My particular Pioneer Elite is the DVR-7000, which was considered a very high end model, and is probably the most gorgeous DVD recorder I've ever seen.

I was afraid that was the model you have, Maldez. It is, indeed, a gorgeous unit, as well it should be with an original retail pushing $3000. But it is woefully past its prime and you are extraordinarily lucky that it still works at all. While beautifully crafted cosmetically, it was essentially a prototype unlike any Pioneer sold afterward. Several updates and recalls were issued, and both the burner and encoder were known to be faulty. As a "first-generation" DVD recorder the DVR-7000 is designed primarily to record 2x-4x blank DVD-R and earlier versions of DVD-RW (which you've apparently stockpiled).

The jury is still out on whether stockpiling blank DVDs for more than a year or two is a wise idea. If your stash of blank DVD-RW is more than a few years old, it could be deteriorated to the point it can't burn perfectly anymore (RW is much more volatile and fragile than R). You could be caught between a rock and a hard place in terms of rewritables: your old stash may have "expired" and the DVR-7000 is going to have some compatibility issues with any new discs.

Like most 2001 recorders, the DVR-7000 was designed around Japanese-spec TY DVD-R. If you continue to have difficulties, try buying some JVC/TY 8x Premium DVD-R media: your DVR-7000 should be able to reliably burn that if its functioning reasonably well. Rewritable RW is another story: the very old recorders can be even more picky with RW. Normally one would suggest current Verbatim for RW, but it doesn't always click with the DVR-7000 and nothing else out there is going to be much better. Be sure any new RW you buy is rated 2.4x speed, the newer 4x -RW would most likely be rejected by a 7000. Slower media must usually be purchased thru web dealers like Rima or Supermediastore.

You've said that the biggest problem is your Elite won't play discs it has already burned, not burning new recordings. You should try playing the "problem" DVDs in as many different PCs, laptops and DVD/BD players you can: if the discs play without incident in most other gear, you definitely have a playback issue in the DVR-7000. If the discs have similar problems played in other gear, there is a media or burning issue which can be hard to troubleshoot in this particular model. Complicating this is the way -RW was used in the old recorders: if you have editing "VR Mode" enabled (so you can edit material on -RW discs), those discs cannot be played in anything but a Pioneer recorder or Pioneer player (because they use a proprietary file format). You would need to try some -R write-once media and finalize it in the 7000, to make it compatible with computers and other DVD players. These -R test discs can then be played in other gear to check if your 7000 is burning compatibly and reliably.

I have never once seen a "cleaning disc" accomplish anything at all in these situations, but its worth a shot- you never know who'll get lucky and it might just be a cat hair caught in the laser assembly. If that doesn't work, follow the troubleshooting steps I outlined above: take off the cover, examine the burner, and try to figure out which model it is. In the DVR-7000 its probably the DVR-103 or DVR-104. You would then need to find one of these (eBay etc) and follow the burner swap instructions I linked to. The "gotcha" here is that the DVR-7000 may be booby-trapped: unlike the followup Eites with TiVo, if you remove the burner from a DVR-7000 you might trigger a motherboard reset that requires a service remote and service disc to clear. These tools cost approx $50-60 and can be difficult to get, they aren't a worthwhile investment anymore except for the HDD-equipped models (HDDs are easy to find in good condition, burners are scarcer than hen's teeth and most are half-dead). If you trigger a reset when removing the burner, the recorder will not operate normally until you clear it with the service tools (meaning your 7000 would be useless until you can get your hands on those tools).

I don't really agree with the concept of "too old" or "obsolete".

I don't agree with it either, a $3000 recorder should not be disposable, nor should a $300 recorder, but in the end DVD recorders have the half-life of a fruitfly due to rapid, not-always-positive developments in underlying technologies (and Hollywood making simple burner replacement utterly impossible). The Pioneer DVR-7000 was introduced in 2001 as a bleeding-edge early-adopter product with a lot of teething pains. The blank media it was designed to use was abruptly discontinued a few months after it hit store shelves, and many owners were livid when upon loading a 4x blank instead of 2x the machine committed suicide. Updates were issued to make it more usable, but the DVR-7000 is sadly one of those models that got caught in a whiplash time warp (ahead of its time when introduced, hopelessly archaic six months later).

But it does matter which specific model is being discussed.
- Some models are excellent, and should be babied and repaired as long as possible.

Agreed, until it reaches the point repair parts are impossible to get or were so sketchy to begin with that it doesn't pay to do the repair. The Elite 7000 is such a unit. It used a prehistoric, fragile burner design that corrupted itself randomly if it didn't like the blank media inserted. Replacement burners are thin on the ground, because most died when loaded with later blanks and if you do find a functional replacement you need to be sure its had firmware patches applied, or you could brick the entire recorder. It is human nature to be dazzled by pretty, shiny, big tech toys with big pricetags: the DVR-7000 was one hell of a gorgeous-looking recorder and people REALLY hate having to give them up. But they just aren't practical to use in 2012 unless you raided a Pioneer service center for parts when Pioneer went bankrupt in 2008.

- Other models need to be shot and buried, replaced by something better.

Everyone has their own short list of gear that deserves burial, and hardly any agree with each other. The Pioneer 7000 doesn't deserve burial, but kinda needs to sit on a separate shelf and be viewed as a museum piece akin to a Sony BetaMax SL-7200 vcr or Phase Linear 9500 CD player. I personally would not take a Toshiba XS dvd/hdd recorder if you gave it to me, but you have VH members who spend every waking minute trying to keep them functional (replacing the burner every two weeks, etc).

To each his own. While absolutely stunning for its build and materials quality, the Pioneer 7000 has no particular functional qualities that merit jumping thru hoops to repair it. Video quality is average, good for 2001 but unimpressive in 2012. Its authoring capabilities are primitive, with odd text-only menus that caused compatibility problems when played in other gear. The burners came with a near-immediate self-destruct flaw and its difficult to find replacements that A) still work and B) have the correct, long-gone firmware updates.

[Maldez]

Orsetto, once again, thanks again for taking the time to provide such a detailed and informative repsonse! You guys are just awesome. You gave me so much to digest, but What I'm coming away with is it is my Elite 7000's burner is likely shot, say my farewells, and pick up something better technically though not nearly so pretty or well made as my Pioneer. I did a little testing last night (tried a fresh Verbation disc) with the same results. Tried recording in Standard Play Recording mode vs. VR Mode, same results.

So, taking your advice, I will no jump through hoops to get my 7000 burning again. I'll probably pick up a DVD cleaner...maybe I'll get lucky.

I'll probably also try a 2012 disc (not from my old stock-pile) if I can find a 2x out there anymore. Just one more reason to put my Elite on the museum shelf, I guess.

Oh, one more little side-note to my situation. I was so in love with my Pioneer Elite 7000 when I bought it, and so attracted by the plumetting prices, I bought a 2nd unit which to this day remains in virgin condition, unopened, in the original shipping package.

Do you think it has any special value as a collector's piece? Would you fire it up, enjoy it, or keep it stowed away as an investment?

[orsetto]

The DVR-7000 does not have any intrinsic collectible value: little DVD hardware does. It gets too outmoded too quickly, and there doesn't seem to be any "romance" attached to early luxe models. You will see certain 25 year old CD players fetching decent prices from collectors, but not DVD players/recorders. The only DVD recorders worth any significant money today are the 2006-2008 North American Panasonic, Pioneer and Toshiba units with HDD: highly coveted, often sell for $300+ to fans who love using them.

Any given week, there are many "new old stock" or "mint in box" DVR-7000s on eBay, with asking prices in the hundreds. They never sell. If you really love this recorder, Maldez, I think you would be much better off opening your backup unit and enjoying the use of it. Just be careful with the blank media, and check inside the box for a slip indicating the burner has had firmware updates applied (I assume your first one did).

[Maldez]

Well, hell's bells, I'm not having any luck. No value or not, I'm reluctant to lay hands on a unit that has been hermetically sealed (not quite) for several years, so I don't think I'll be using a DVR-7000 in the future. The used one is on its last legs, and the virginal one will remain a virgin until I feel the call.

Now, as for a new 2012 era DVD recorder, what do you video experts recommend? Do I wait for an HD unit to become available, or do I make the plunge now? If plunging now is the course of action, what would you suggest if price was no object?

[jjeff]

Unlike when you purchased your 7000 and one had the choice of spending lots more and getting a much better unit, now days you only have a couple of choices and even then they might be around that much longer.
For maximum versatility and best price then one of the Magnavoxes with a HDD is your best choice. They start under $200 for a refurb and have a lot for the money. Check out this AVS thread for everything you'd want to know about them.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=940657
If you can live without a tuner(line input recording only) then a international Panasonic might work for you. They are more refined than the Maggies, have easier editing and the ability to burn to DL media. They start closer to $400 and you can check out this thread for links and brief descriptions of the international Panasonics.
Thats about it unless you want to go used and even then '06 was really the last year of top of the line major mfg. DVDRs.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1134909

[usually_quiet]

Well, hell's bells, I'm not having any luck. No value or not, I'm reluctant to lay hands on a unit that has been hermetically sealed (not quite) for several years, so I don't think I'll be using a DVR-7000 in the future. The used one is on its last legs, and the virginal one will remain a virgin until I feel the call.

Now, as for a new 2012 era DVD recorder, what do you video experts recommend? Do I wait for an HD unit to become available, or do I make the plunge now? If plunging now is the course of action, what would you suggest if price was no object?

If you live in the US and want an HDD recorder with a digital tuner, there are only two choices, the Magnavox MDR-513H/F7 and Magnavox MDR-515H/F7. Both are basic recorders without the niceties provided by deluxe HDD recorders from about 6 years back. I have a Magnavox MDR-513H/F7. There is one thing about it that I really wish were different. It looses its timer settings if there is even a brief loss of power. The only fix for it is a uninterruptible power supply. The Magnavox MDR-515H/F7 supposedly retains its timer settings for a couple of hours if it looses power and has a 500GB hard drive. If you want one do not wait to buy, since production is at an end.

If you don't want a digital tuner, there are gray market "international" Panasonics with an HDD available from specialty retailers like bhphotovideo.com, samstores.com, and 220-electronics.com They are as close as you are going to get to a new high-end DVD recorder in 2012 living in the US.

[orsetto]

The Magnavox MDR-515H/F7 supposedly retains its timer settings for a couple of hours if it looses power and has a 500GB hard drive. If you want one do not wait to buy, since production is at an end.

The longer backup power system in the 515 model is a double-edged sword if you have the machine hooked directly into an incoming cable wire (instead of line outputs from a decoder box). The Magnavox tuners are notorious for bizarro-world lockups every time the cable company so much as hiccups, and often the only solution is to unplug the power until the recorder resets. The 513 resets very quickly, the 515 takes forever. Something to consider if you have no-box cable: the 513 is the better choice. If connected to an off-air antenna or a cable/satellite decoder box, both the 513 and 515 do just fine.

If price is not an issue, the Panasonic grey-market EH59 and EH69 are vastly superior to the Magnavox in terms of convenience, flexibility, and interface. But at $280-380, they suffer from not having a North American tuner: they're primarily intended for use with an external cable box or satellite box. For off-air antenna or boxless cable, the Magnavox 16:9 DTV tuner makes a strong case for itself. The usability advantages of the Panasonics are more significant to those who have owned similar circa-2007 recorders in the past, and want a new one that works the same. Such people tend to be non-plussed by the Magnavox interface. However, someone coming from the somewhat primitive DVR-7000 interface would likely find the Magnavox delightfully familiar with enhanced features.

[Maldez]

Guys, I've been down this road before. The Magnavox MDR-513H/F7 DOES NOT RECORD IN HIGH DEFINITION, despite the "HDD" in its description. As far as I know nobody in the world makes a DVD recorder that will record in true High Definition...yet. That's why I asked if maybe I should wait before picking up a new DVD recorder...is a true HD recorder on the horizon, or not?

[jjeff]

NO DVDR available in N. America will record true HD, NONE. AFA are their any on the horizon...... no one knows. Their is a petition on another forum for Magnavox(Funai) to design and sell a HD BD recorder and I believe they have a prototype but whether it ever goes on sale is another story. If you don't mind waiting just sit back and wait, otherwise your choices now would be the two mentioned, that or a older model none of which are HD.

[usually_quiet]

Guys, I've been down this road before. The Magnavox MDR-513H/F7 DOES NOT RECORD IN HIGH DEFINITION, despite the "HDD" in its description. As far as I know nobody in the world makes a DVD recorder that will record in true High Definition...yet. That's why I asked if maybe I should wait before picking up a new DVD recorder...is a true HD recorder on the horizon, or not?

HDD means hard disc drive, not high-definition. If you want a recorder that records in high-definition, there are some for use with an antenna, and there are TiVo's high-def recorders for cable, but there will be no option to record to optical media, and limited or no ability to export recordings by other means. A home theater PC comes the closest to what you are looking for, but will be more work to use.

[orsetto]

Guys, I've been down this road before. The Magnavox MDR-513H/F7 DOES NOT RECORD IN HIGH DEFINITION, despite the "HDD" in its description. As far as I know nobody in the world makes a DVD recorder that will record in true High Definition...yet.

Well, "recording in high definition" is a completely different topic from "what do I do regarding my failing DVR-7000." The recorder alternatives we've been suggesting are of course DVD recorders, but with the indispensable HDD (Hard Disk Drive) feature. We are well aware the Magnavox does not record in true HDTV, but it does have a 16:9 tuner that rather effectively downrezzes the HDTV signal into near-HDTV quality on DVD. Just how "near-HDTV" depends on the program material, your eyes, and the size of your screen (with off-air antenna, major network prime time shows, and a display smaller than 42" its damn good). The Magnavox has always been the only DVD recorder with both a hard drive and a 16:9 digital tuner, and its tuner/timer is about the most reliable of a bad breed (recorder DTV tuners/timers have a poor reliability record compared to the old analog tuners). The Panasonic import models do not have any usable North American tuner, but they will record in 16:9 from a cable, satellite, or off-air external tuner box if that box can output a 16:9 signal over S-video or composite connection (if it doesn't, there are workarounds involving an adapter that converts the 16:9 HDMI output to 16:9 s-video for the DVD recorder).

That's why I asked if maybe I should wait before picking up a new DVD recorder...is a true HD recorder on the horizon, or not?

Yes, pick up a new DVD/HDD (hard disk drive) recorder. Do it NOW, because they are on the cusp of extinction and predatory sellers are stockpiling them to sell at nosebleed prices next year when last-minute demand skyrockets. WalMart itself is already gouging for its final recent shipment of Magnavoxes: for three years, WalMart has charged $199 for the 513 and $229 for the 515, last month prices jumped nearly $100 on each. Amazon sellers are already trying to get $400. If you're interested in a Magnavox, monitor the J&R link for a week or so to see if they get some more 513s in at $169. If not, jump on the 515 direct thru WalMart website. The Panasonics are best purchased thru B&H Photo/Video website.

There is no "true" HDTV disk recorder on the horizon for USA/Canada, for the same reasons DVD/HDD recorders are now going extinct: consumer apathy. A good recorder that is at least marginally profitable for the mfr runs at least $499, and North American consumers have repeatedly and consistently said "absolutely not" to that pricetag. That is why all DVD/HDD recorders disappeared from USA in 2006, leaving only crummy DVD/VHS combos (and the Magnavox twins, which were subsidized by WalMart as a "halo" product). Worldwide, interest in removable disk recording is declining rapidly: BluRay/HDD recorders have been available in Europe for several years but never really took off and Panasonic is now the sole remaining supplier. The "hot" (if you can really call it that) recorder nowadays is the cheap "TiVo knockoff" that records in true HDTV quality but only to internal hard drive with no disk burning. In Europe, the latest trend is to add a BluRay player to these "TiVos," but no burners. In USA/Canada, the "TiVo knockoffs" have been pretty bad or limited to just off-air recording. Some newer models are adaptable to cable, but at that point you may as well buy the genuine TiVo and at least have TiVo's clout with cable companies and reliable connectivity to your PC (to burn AVCHD high-def DVDs or BluRays).

The egomaniacal self-serving nutcase on that "other" forum, who constantly (and obnoxiously) shills for WalMart and Magnavox, has been dropping all sorts of "loaded" hints lately to make his brainwashed followers believe he has "inside information" that Magnavox will introduce a BluRay/HDD recorder in the near future, or at least a souped-up replacement for the recently-discontinued 513/515. Given the dismal sales and financial losses of the current Magnavox, and that the mfr stopped selling its last BD/HDD recorder in Japan in 2010, I find this highly unlikely. However, the existing Magnavox itself has been an anomaly since 2009, when it was discontinued for lack of interest then suddenly upgraded and re-introduced six months later for no apparent reason. There are forces at WalMart that seem to want this product despite $$$ losses, and the mfr plays along since they have the lucrative contract for high-volume TVs and other WM electronics. If you don't urgently need a new recorder, you could wait for the next round of new product introductions this summer or fall, and see if Magnavox surprises us. Doubtful, but stranger things have happened.

[lordsmurf]

Need a new DVD recorder? Get a Magnavox.

Go here: http://www.amazon.com/mn/search/?_encoding=UTF8&tag=thdifa-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&c...ch-alias%3Daps
Pick on of the available models.
You're going to spend about $200 for a refurb, or $325+ for a new model. But it's worth it.
Note that there are very few of these left in stock, and that's one of the cheapest places to still get good recorders.

HDD = hard drive, not high def (HDTV).
If you want an HD recorder, get this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0030DH1I8/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=thdifa-20&link...SIN=B0030DH1I8
Currently $995.
But if you really need HD recorder, it's worth it. (This is really a pro tool, not intended for recording TV.)

[Maldez]

Well, again, lots of good information to consider, and I thank you all for your contributions. If I'm not mistaken the Magnavox MDR-513H does not record to a single DVD disc, does it? Only to the hard drive? If that's the case, it immediately becomes an unworkable option for me because the primary use of my DVD recorder is to record movies and sports to discs that I add to my ever growing library. I love the simplicity of having my recordings easily accessible by inserting a single disc into my machine, and cringe at the thought of days worth of programing piled up on a hard drive.

So, after taking into consideration all of your suggestions and information I'm starting to lean towards breaking out my virgin DVR 7000 and hoping I get the same great production out it that I got out of my now dying unit. I love its editing functionality, ease of use, and overall fit and finish. It becomes a lot easier to make the decision considering it has almost no worth as a collectors piece. If I can squeeze even five years out of it, just imagine what might be available in the world of DVD recorders in the year 2017!

But as suggested I'm going to take a final shot at "fixing" it with some sort of DVD cleaner. A small price to pay.

As for the media I'm going to need, I still have several spindles of Verbatim 2X RW on hand, and it looks like you can still buy 2X media on-line pretty readily.

One of you guys suggested a $995 JVC unit which records in "true HD". I checked it out on Amazon but unfortunately it does not record to a DVD disc, so doesn't work for me, but a good idea.

[usually_quiet]

Well, again, lots of good information to consider, and I thank you all for your contributions. If I'm not mistaken the Magnavox MDR-513H does not record to a single DVD disc, does it? Only to the hard drive? If that's the case, it immediately becomes an unworkable option for me because the primary use of my DVD recorder is to record movies and sports to discs that I add to my ever growing library. I love the simplicity of having my recordings easily accessible by inserting a single disc into my machine, and cringe at the thought of days worth of programing piled up on a hard drive.

So, after taking into consideration all of your suggestions and information I'm starting to lean towards breaking out my virgin DVR 7000 and hoping I get the same great production out it that I got out of my now dying unit. I love its editing functionality, ease of use, and overall fit and finish. It becomes a lot easier to make the decision considering it has almost no worth as a collectors piece. If I can squeeze even five years out of it, just imagine what might be available in the world of DVD recorders in the year 2017!

But as suggested I'm going to take a final shot at "fixing" it with some sort of DVD cleaner. A small price to pay.

As for the media I'm going to need, I still have several spindles of Verbatim 2X RW on hand, and it looks like you can still buy 2X media on-line pretty readily.

One of you guys suggested a $995 JVC unit which records in "true HD". I checked it out on Amazon but unfortunately it does not record to a DVD disc, so doesn't work for me, but a good idea.

The Magnavox Magnavox MDR-513H can be used to record to DVD. One touch recording mode records direct to DVD, if DVD recording is selected. For timed recording to DVD, it records to the HDD first, then immediately begins dubbing to DVD. Programming with "copy once" protection can only be recorded to the HDD, and won't be dubbed, nor can it be recorded to DVD using "one-touch" recording.

I hate to break it to you but the DVD recorder is a dying breed everywhere in the world. By 2017, it is unlikely that anybody will be making devices that record TV to optical media. Everything is moving toward encrypted file-based recordings on USB sticks or hard drives,

[Maldez]

[QUOTE=usually_quiet;2157908]

I hate to break it to you but the DVD recorder is a dying breed everywhere in the world. By 2017, it is unlikely that anybody will be making devices that record TV to optical media. Everything is moving toward encrypted file-based recordings on USB sticks or hard drives,

Well, if that's the case, maybe I should buy 3 or 4 DVD recorders and a truckload of DVD discs. What's your source of information?

[jjeff]

What's your source of information?

The best but least relied upon source, history.......
DVDRs are dead and not coming back. Dont' believe us, try and buy a new VCR....
It's one reason so many people are scarfing up the last of the Magnavoxes over at AVS. In hindsight I would have liked to have grabbed several HDD Panasonics back in '05-'06, nothing really like them since or IMO ever likely to be

[usually_quiet]

I hate to break it to you but the DVD recorder is a dying breed everywhere in the world. By 2017, it is unlikely that anybody will be making devices that record TV to optical media. Everything is moving toward encrypted file-based recordings on USB sticks or hard drives,

Well, if that's the case, maybe I should buy 3 or 4 DVD recorders and a truckload of DVD discs. What's your source of information?

History shows that no recording technology lasts forever. Posts I have read on VideoHelp point to a decline. Members in other countries are starting to ask more questions about their TVs that record to USB sticks, or their DVRs that have no DVD drive which they use for recording free over-the-air TV or free satellite broadcasts. The growing popularity of streaming video services worldwide means there is less need to record at all, which further erodes demand. Plus, sales of blank DVD media have been declining.

Even if it turns out I am wrong about the rest of the world, the product category is definitely dead in N. America. Best Buy, HH Gregg or Fry's do not stock DVD recorders even online, and haven't for a few years. Even Walmart doesn't stock the ones that it sells online in most stores, and production is at an end for all of the ones they sell.

Nobody will be making consumer Blu-Ray recorders for the US because DVD recorders were spectacularly unprofitable here after TV went digital. I have seen pictures and specs for some of the Blu-Ray recorders sold in other countries that are used for recording free TV and free satellite broadcasts. They have no HD line inputs. They only record HD from their tuners. This means they are nearly useless to anyone living in N. America and won't be imported by the gray-market dealers now selling DVD recorders.

[orsetto]

If I'm not mistaken the Magnavox MDR-513H does not record to a single DVD disc, does it? Only to the hard drive? If that's the case, it immediately becomes an unworkable option for me because the primary use of my DVD recorder is to record movies and sports to discs that I add to my ever growing library.

Did you not notice that each time we mention the Magnavox or Panasonic, we refer to them as DVD/HDD recorders? Of course they record DVDs: if they didn't, we wouldn't have suggested them to you. A HDD recorder without DVD capability isn't a DVD/HDD recorder: its a TiVO, or "PVR." A DVD/HDD machine can record direct to DVD if you insist, but you probably won't want to since going from HDD to DVD offers so much more.

You have been out of the loop so long, Maldez, that you basically bought the first available prototype DVD recorder then sat out the entire ensuing history of the format, resurfacing now just as they're about to disappear completely as a consumer product. All consumer formats come to an end: DVD is now dead outside of PC-related burning, and BluRay is not far behind (as far as video burning, pre-recorded discs will stick around for awhile).

Early DVD recorders like your 7000 bombed totally, because they sucked at editing and could not be used like a VCR. As an early adopter, you got used to yours quickly and fell in love with it. But the average price of $400 for similar followup models, with the same limitations, was unappealing to consumers conditioned to $99 vcrs and off-putting to "power" vcr users who'd grown dependent on editing options impossible with direct-to-DVD recording. The most misunderstood fundamental aspect of optical disc recording (both CD and DVD) is that discs really weren't ever intended to be recorded directly onto. These are essentially PC storage formats, designed to be "pre-mastered" on the PC hard drive, then burned in one continuous operation. The consumer concept of "direct to disc" recording is the kludge of all kludges, developed solely because the cost of including a hard drive in early CD and DVD recorders was so high few consumers could have afforded it. The irony, of course, is that without the HDD the recorders were so annoying to use consumers didn't buy them anyway, and we got stuck with the atrocious "direct to disc" system for nothing.

I love the simplicity of having my recordings easily accessible by inserting a single disc into my machine, and cringe at the thought of days worth of programing piled up on a hard drive.

Yes, this typical attitude from the typical consumer is what drives the rest of us mental and makes us want to kill you all: its what drove the wonderful, advanced DVD/HDD recorders of 2006 off the market and left us with crap VHS/DVD combos that are nothing more than your DVR-7000 molded out of plastic with a cheap VCR grafted onto it. Nothing personal, Maldez, just saying: the mfrs were unable to effectively communicate the advantages of the HDD to American consumers, then got blindsided when cable companies began renting TiVo-like PVRs for $10/month. The window of opportunity closed, and recorders have gotten worse and less capable each year since 2006. Today they are all but gone.

Instead of "cringing at the thought of recordings piling up on the HDD," turn your head around and rethink your approach: once you experience how much more the HDD offers, you won't believe you tolerated the limits of DVD-direct recording for so long. Back in 2004, I felt the same way: the price difference between a Pioneer DVR-310 (same as your 7000) and Pioneer DVR-510 (with HDD) was $300 vs $600. I couldn't find a good reason why I should spend double for the HDD model, so I bought the 310. I got pretty much nothing out of it: nice machine, made good recordings, but editing didn't even match cheap VCR capability: the only gain over a VCR was better PQ and the much smaller storage space of DVDs vs tapes. Other than relief at not piling up bulky tapes anymore, I was underwhelmed.

Over the next year, I bought a dozen second-hand JVC DR-MV5 DVD/VHS combo recorders, under the misguided assumption (which most consumers still foolishly believe) that this would be the easiest and quickest way to convert masses of VHS tapes to DVD. I learned almost immediately this was not the case: combo recorders are plagued with unexpected design glitches, counterproductive "features," and suffer from the same limits as other direct-to-DVD machines. I sold off the JVCs, after tiring of their flaws and deciding individual DVD recorders + separate VCRs were more flexible. It was then I noticed a literal flood of used Pioneer (and other brands) of DVD recorders hitting eBay at dirt cheap prices, mostly because their burners had gone bad prematurely. Since I was familiar with the Pioneers, I bought many of them, learned to repair them, and flipped them for a nice profit.

Eventually, I came into possession of my first broken DVD/HDD models: a DVR-520 (the most popular Pioneer of all time) and a DVR-531. After repairing them, I tried them out before putting them up for sale. The HDD was a revelation: I could not believe people were not shouting from the rooftops about how great the HDD feature was. It completely changes how you work with a DVD recorder, allowing flexibility and capability you could only dream of with a VCR or DVD-direct machine. The HDD transforms DVD recording from a chore to a pleasure. Bringing me to your next point:

I'm starting to lean towards breaking out my virgin DVR 7000 and hoping I get the same great production out it that I got out of my now dying unit. I love its editing functionality, ease of use, and overall fit and finish.

If you think the DVR-7000 has "editing functionality" and "ease of use," just wait til you try a DVD/HDD recorder. Its night and day, like going from a 1918-era Remington typewriter to MicroSoft Word on a PC. Here are just some of the advantages you get by recording to the HDD first, then burning the DVD afterward:

1. Never worry again about running out of disc capacity: primetime expected to run long because of a big game or Presidential address? No problem: set the timer to record to HDD an extra hour.

2. Never have to spend extra for RW media again (or waste time erasing and formatting them): the HDD is a single gigantic RW device. All editing is done on the HDD, more easily than on RW discs. Since you never burn an actual DVD unless you want to, you're now free to timeshift everything in creation without worrying about disc space or whether you really want a disc at all. Watch what you recorded, and if you don't want to archive it, press the Delete button and its gone in an instant. When you DO want to make a DVD, you are free to use premium record-once -R and +R media which is cheaper and more archival than RW (with its volatile erasable nature).

3. Or, say you tend to watch the ABC Sunday night lineup 8PM-11PM but only archive one of the shows on DVD. With the 7000, your options to do this are limited. With DVD/HDD, your options expand. For one thing, since you choose what you want from the HDD before burning the DVD, you can think ahead and plan for the best quality archive. The networks average 17 mins of commercials per hour of programming: this is hard to delete recording direct to DVD, but on the HDD you can set the timer to record the entire Sunday lineup at SP speed. Next day, you can quickly cut out all the commercials on the HDD, reducing the three hours to just over two, which will fit nicely on a DVD (and you'll never see those annoying commercials again). The same applies to sports events: plan to cut out all the quality-draining commercials, and you can use a better recording speed.

4. Multiple copies. It only takes about 15 mins to high-speed burn a DVD from the HDD, so if you want to make an extra for a friend, pop in another disc and do it easily (before you erase the HDD originals).

5. You can assemble one complete recording from pieces of several recordings. If you have cable or satellite, you've often been screwed by technical glitches (scene freezes or breaks up in the middle of a show or movie). With DVD/HDD, you can record a rerun later that day or week, and merge the best parts of each to make one "perfect" DVD.

6. You can easily assemble clip compilations. Say you like to record Saturday Night Live, or some music specials. But you don't really want to archive the stupid commercials, or even 90% of the show. With HDD, you can edit out everything but the 10 mins you want to keep, and just leave the clip on the HDD until you accumulate enough additional clips to fill a DVD.

7. Emergency "force-fitting." Sometimes we make a mistake when recording, or the broadcaster gives incorrect running time info (movie runs 132 mins, DVD at SP can only hold about 128 mins). Recording direct to DVD, you're at the mercy of when the disc runs out. With HDD, *you* choose the two minutes that need to go in order to fit the movie on a DVD. Yeah, its blasphemous, but if its a rare movie (or sports event or concert) that likely won't be rerun any time soon, its better to cut a minute or two of padding and have the complete ending, rather than have the disc run out just at the end. Depending how anal you are about preserving "complete" games, you can edit the hell out of sports events and use the better-quality SP speed instead of LP (cut out the ads, inane commentary, repetitive replays, and you can sometimes reduce a 4-hr afternoon to two hours).

If I can squeeze even five years out of it [DVR-7000], just imagine what might be available in the world of DVD recorders in the year 2017!

We don't have to imagine: we already know. NOTHING will be available in 2017. DVD recorders have been stone-dead in USA/Canada since about 2008, when cable/satellite integrated decoder box/PVRs took over the typical consumer video recording tasks (and the digital broadcast transition ran over recorder mfrs like a Sherman tank). You, and people like us on VH, like to archive stuff to disc. But 999 out of 1000 North Americans don't, in fact it never even occurs to them. All they want is convenient time-shifting, preferably by pointing and clicking on a program grid supplied by their cable or satellite service. They don't want a separate recorder, they don't want a separate timer, they don't want a lump-sum upfront recorder expense. Satellite requires a decoder, so its impossible to nicely integrate any external recorder. Cable used to allow this, until they realized how much money there was in renting PVR boxes- now they have made it so technically challenging to use a non-rental recorder that most consumers don't bother.

Cable hassles (along with recorder prices) are the reasons DVD/HDD recorders tanked a few years ago and why mfrs never bothered to sell BluRay/HDD recorders in America. They flourished in Europe for a few years longer (because Europe has standardized broadcast program grid timers and satellite service), but now Europe has lost interest and even the Japanese (who record EVERYTHING) have moved on to pure HDD file archives. This is partly due to the rapid rise of video smartphones and tablets: so much viewing is now done on-the-go that web streaming or iTunes-style file loading has replaced DVDs (and much BluRay use).

Just as CDs killed vinyl and the MP3 killed CDs, DVD killed VHS and now MP4 is killing DVD.

You want a nice DVD recorder, buy it NOW, Maldez: the Magnavox if you need an off-air tuner, or the Panasonic if you have a decoder box for cable or satellite. Unless the Magnavox is replaced, it will be gone when supplies run out over the next couple months. The Panasonics have not been updated in three years and Panasonic has not introduced any truly new recorders anywhere in the world since 2009, so the clock is ticking on those as well. If you check Amazon global sites, you'd be shocked: other than Panasonic, no one offers BluRay recorders, and DVD recorders have all but vanished. (The "pro" JVC BluRay/HDD sold here in America is useless to most consumers: it can't record in HDTV from anything but a camcorder).

I'm ranting like this because I don't want you to regret stalling, Maldez: you will not BELIEVE how expensive leftover recorders become once word gets out they are well and truly discontinued for good. People tend to be slow on the uptake when this stuff first goes down, then they all seem to realize what happened at the same time and freak out, paying any crazy price. jjeff and the Panasonic fans have seen this happen with Panasonics, and I have seen it with Pioneers for sure. Back in 2006, Pioneer left the USA market but introduced improved DVD/HDD recorders in Canada for 2007 (model 550) and 2008 (model 560) right before going bankrupt. When I discovered a couple Montreal wholesalers on eBay offering demo and open-box 550s and 560s for $237 each, I jumped on as many as I could afford.

They sold out within months, then when word got out Pioneer had gone under, all hell broke loose: those same recorders began fetching $600+, used, with no remote (ditto Panasonic EH55 and EH-85). Today, they have almost completely disappeared from the secondary market: can't buy one at any price. Those who own a 550 or 560 know there will never again be such an amazing machine, so they hold onto them (even if they have to sell their TV to pay for groceries). Don't be blindsided by this, Maldez: act now while you have reasonably-priced brand-new options. That lunatic on the other forum has been relentlessly pimping the Magnavox all over the internet for the past five years, hyping the Magnavox has unhinged him to the point its all he lives for now: when it gets discontinued, he'll go into nuclear meltdown, hysterically promoting the leftover units on every website he can weasel himself onto. The Magnavox is a great machine at $200, but it'll be an outrageous ripoff at $500. The choice is yours.

[Maldez]

If I'm not mistaken the Magnavox MDR-513H does not record to a single DVD disc, does it? Only to the hard drive? If that's the case, it immediately becomes an unworkable option for me because the primary use of my DVD recorder is to record movies and sports to discs that I add to my ever growing library.

Did you not notice that each time we mention the Magnavox or Panasonic, we refer to them as DVD/HDD recorders? Of course they record DVDs: if they didn't, we wouldn't have suggested them to you. A HDD recorder without DVD capability isn't a DVD/HDD recorder: its a TiVO, or "PVR." A DVD/HDD machine can record direct to DVD if you insist, but you probably won't want to since going from HDD to DVD offers so much more.

Well, you got me there. I obviously did a sloppy job of reading and digesting what you took the time to explain to me, so I will simply apologize. But great to know that these units will in fact record to a single disc DVD as well as the HD.

You have been out of the loop so long, Maldez, that you basically bought the first available prototype DVD recorder then sat out the entire ensuing history of the format, resurfacing now just as they're about to disappear completely as a consumer product. All consumer formats come to an end: DVD is now dead outside of PC-related burning, and BluRay is not far behind (as far as video burning, pre-recorded discs will stick around for awhile).

Again, guilty as charged! My Pioneer DVR 7000 was so perfect for what I wanted, that I did in fact bury my head in the sand as the rest of the DVD evolved. Now that I've come up for air, I'm shocked and horrified to learn that the end may be near. My response? I'll believe it when I see it! I have to believe that there will always be enough video enthusiasts like myself who simply prefer having there library in disc format. Time will tell.

Early DVD recorders like your 7000 bombed totally, because they sucked at editing and could not be used like a VCR.

This is where you totally lose me, as I could not disagree more. My 7000 is super at letting me snip out even the tiniest bits of unwanted video, with near precision. If there was a particular basketball game, e.g., that I wanted to remove the commercials from, I could do so and the resulting video wouild flow seamlessly without any trace of editing. You obviously never owned a 7000 or you wouldn't have made the comment you did.

As an early adopter, you got used to yours quickly and fell in love with it. But the average price of $400 for similar followup models, with the same limitations, was unappealing to consumers conditioned to $99 vcrs and off-putting to "power" vcr users who'd grown dependent on editing options impossible with direct-to-DVD recording. The most misunderstood fundamental aspect of optical disc recording (both CD and DVD) is that discs really weren't ever intended to be recorded directly onto. These are essentially PC storage formats, designed to be "pre-mastered" on the PC hard drive, then burned in one continuous operation. The consumer concept of "direct to disc" recording is the kludge of all kludges, developed solely because the cost of including a hard drive in early CD and DVD recorders was so high few consumers could have afforded it. The irony, of course, is that without the HDD the recorders were so annoying to use consumers didn't buy them anyway, and we got stuck with the atrocious "direct to disc" system for nothing.

Annoying to use? Again, don't understand why you'd say that. To me a DVD recorder is as easy, if not easier to use that a VCR.

Yes, this typical attitude from the typical consumer is what drives the rest of us mental and makes us want to kill you all: its what drove the wonderful, advanced DVD/HDD recorders of 2006 off the market and left us with crap VHS/DVD combos that are nothing more than your DVR-7000 molded out of plastic with a cheap VCR grafted onto it. Nothing personal, Maldez, just saying: the mfrs were unable to effectively communicate the advantages of the HDD to American consumers, then got blindsided when cable companies began renting TiVo-like PVRs for $10/month. The window of opportunity closed, and recorders have gotten worse and less capable each year since 2006. Today they are all but gone.

Instead of "cringing at the thought of recordings piling up on the HDD," turn your head around and rethink your approach: once you experience how much more the HDD offers, you won't believe you tolerated the limits of DVD-direct recording for so long. Back in 2004, I felt the same way: the price difference between a Pioneer DVR-310 (same as your 7000) and Pioneer DVR-510 (with HDD) was $300 vs $600. I couldn't find a good reason why I should spend double for the HDD model, so I bought the 310. I got pretty much nothing out of it: nice machine, made good recordings, but editing didn't even match cheap VCR capability: the only gain over a VCR was better PQ and the much smaller storage space of DVDs vs tapes. Other than relief at not piling up bulky tapes anymore, I was underwhelmed.

Over the next year, I bought a dozen second-hand JVC DR-MV5 DVD/VHS combo recorders, under the misguided assumption (which most consumers still foolishly believe) that this would be the easiest and quickest way to convert masses of VHS tapes to DVD. I learned almost immediately this was not the case: combo recorders are plagued with unexpected design glitches, counterproductive "features," and suffer from the same limits as other direct-to-DVD machines. I sold off the JVCs, after tiring of their flaws and deciding individual DVD recorders + separate VCRs were more flexible. It was then I noticed a literal flood of used Pioneer (and other brands) of DVD recorders hitting eBay at dirt cheap prices, mostly because their burners had gone bad prematurely. Since I was familiar with the Pioneers, I bought many of them, learned to repair them, and flipped them for a nice profit.

Eventually, I came into possession of my first broken DVD/HDD models: a DVR-520 (the most popular Pioneer of all time) and a DVR-531. After repairing them, I tried them out before putting them up for sale. The HDD was a revelation: I could not believe people were not shouting from the rooftops about how great the HDD feature was. It completely changes how you work with a DVD recorder, allowing flexibility and capability you could only dream of with a VCR or DVD-direct machine. The HDD transforms DVD recording from a chore to a pleasure. Bringing me to your next point:

If you think the DVR-7000 has "editing functionality" and "ease of use," just wait til you try a DVD/HDD recorder. Its night and day, like going from a 1918-era Remington typewriter to MicroSoft Word on a PC. Here are just some of the advantages you get by recording to the HDD first, then burning the DVD afterward:

1. Never worry again about running out of disc capacity: primetime expected to run long because of a big game or Presidential address? No problem: set the timer to record to HDD an extra hour.

2. Never have to spend extra for RW media again (or waste time erasing and formatting them): the HDD is a single gigantic RW device. All editing is done on the HDD, more easily than on RW discs. Since you never burn an actual DVD unless you want to, you're now free to timeshift everything in creation without worrying about disc space or whether you really want a disc at all. Watch what you recorded, and if you don't want to archive it, press the Delete button and its gone in an instant. When you DO want to make a DVD, you are free to use premium record-once -R and +R media which is cheaper and more archival than RW (with its volatile erasable nature).

3. Or, say you tend to watch the ABC Sunday night lineup 8PM-11PM but only archive one of the shows on DVD. With the 7000, your options to do this are limited. With DVD/HDD, your options expand. For one thing, since you choose what you want from the HDD before burning the DVD, you can think ahead and plan for the best quality archive. The networks average 17 mins of commercials per hour of programming: this is hard to delete recording direct to DVD, but on the HDD you can set the timer to record the entire Sunday lineup at SP speed. Next day, you can quickly cut out all the commercials on the HDD, reducing the three hours to just over two, which will fit nicely on a DVD (and you'll never see those annoying commercials again). The same applies to sports events: plan to cut out all the quality-draining commercials, and you can use a better recording speed.

4. Multiple copies. It only takes about 15 mins to high-speed burn a DVD from the HDD, so if you want to make an extra for a friend, pop in another disc and do it easily (before you erase the HDD originals).

5. You can assemble one complete recording from pieces of several recordings. If you have cable or satellite, you've often been screwed by technical glitches (scene freezes or breaks up in the middle of a show or movie). With DVD/HDD, you can record a rerun later that day or week, and merge the best parts of each to make one "perfect" DVD.

6. You can easily assemble clip compilations. Say you like to record Saturday Night Live, or some music specials. But you don't really want to archive the stupid commercials, or even 90% of the show. With HDD, you can edit out everything but the 10 mins you want to keep, and just leave the clip on the HDD until you accumulate enough additional clips to fill a DVD.

7. Emergency "force-fitting." Sometimes we make a mistake when recording, or the broadcaster gives incorrect running time info (movie runs 132 mins, DVD at SP can only hold about 128 mins). Recording direct to DVD, you're at the mercy of when the disc runs out. With HDD, *you* choose the two minutes that need to go in order to fit the movie on a DVD. Yeah, its blasphemous, but if its a rare movie (or sports event or concert) that likely won't be rerun any time soon, its better to cut a minute or two of padding and have the complete ending, rather than have the disc run out just at the end. Depending how anal you are about preserving "complete" games, you can edit the hell out of sports events and use the better-quality SP speed instead of LP (cut out the ads, inane commentary, repetitive replays, and you can sometimes reduce a 4-hr afternoon to two hours).

We don't have to imagine: we already know. NOTHING will be available in 2017. DVD recorders have been stone-dead in USA/Canada since about 2008, when cable/satellite integrated decoder box/PVRs took over the typical consumer video recording tasks (and the digital broadcast transition ran over recorder mfrs like a Sherman tank). You, and people like us on VH, like to archive stuff to disc. But 999 out of 1000 North Americans don't, in fact it never even occurs to them. All they want is convenient time-shifting, preferably by pointing and clicking on a program grid supplied by their cable or satellite service. They don't want a separate recorder, they don't want a separate timer, they don't want a lump-sum upfront recorder expense. Satellite requires a decoder, so its impossible to nicely integrate any external recorder. Cable used to allow this, until they realized how much money there was in renting PVR boxes- now they have made it so technically challenging to use a non-rental recorder that most consumers don't bother.

Cable hassles (along with recorder prices) are the reasons DVD/HDD recorders tanked a few years ago and why mfrs never bothered to sell BluRay/HDD recorders in America. They flourished in Europe for a few years longer (because Europe has standardized broadcast program grid timers and satellite service), but now Europe has lost interest and even the Japanese (who record EVERYTHING) have moved on to pure HDD file archives. This is partly due to the rapid rise of video smartphones and tablets: so much viewing is now done on-the-go that web streaming or iTunes-style file loading has replaced DVDs (and much BluRay use).

Just as CDs killed vinyl and the MP3 killed CDs, DVD killed VHS and now MP4 is killing DVD.

You want a nice DVD recorder, buy it NOW, Maldez: the Magnavox if you need an off-air tuner, or the Panasonic if you have a decoder box for cable or satellite. Unless the Magnavox is replaced, it will be gone when supplies run out over the next couple months. The Panasonics have not been updated in three years and Panasonic has not introduced any truly new recorders anywhere in the world since 2009, so the clock is ticking on those as well. If you check Amazon global sites, you'd be shocked: other than Panasonic, no one offers BluRay recorders, and DVD recorders have all but vanished. (The "pro" JVC BluRay/HDD sold here in America is useless to most consumers: it can't record in HDTV from anything but a camcorder).

Well, you've certainly got my attention now! I am now seriously looking at one of the Panasonics, if for no other reason that I have seen the Magnavox, and it is built like a cheap piece of crap. It's picture may be superior to my Pioneer but the fit and finish is shameful.

People tend to be slow on the uptake when this stuff first goes down, then they all seem to realize what happened at the same time and freak out, paying any crazy price. jjeff and the Panasonic fans have seen this happen with Panasonics, and I have seen it with Pioneers for sure. Back in 2006, Pioneer left the USA market but introduced improved DVD/HDD recorders in Canada for 2007 (model 550) and 2008 (model 560) right before going bankrupt. When I discovered a couple Montreal wholesalers on eBay offering demo and open-box 550s and 560s for $237 each, I jumped on as many as I could afford.

They sold out within months, then when word got out Pioneer had gone under, all hell broke loose: those same recorders began fetching $600+, used, with no remote (ditto Panasonic EH55 and EH-85). Today, they have almost completely disappeared from the secondary market: can't buy one at any price. Those who own a 550 or 560 know there will never again be such an amazing machine, so they hold onto them (even if they have to sell their TV to pay for groceries). Don't be blindsided by this, Maldez: act now while you have reasonably-priced brand-new options. That lunatic on the other forum has been relentlessly pimping the Magnavox all over the internet for the past five years, hyping the Magnavox has unhinged him to the point its all he lives for now: when it gets discontinued, he'll go into nuclear meltdown, hysterically promoting the leftover units on every website he can weasel himself onto. The Magnavox is a great machine at $200, but it'll be an outrageous ripoff at $500. The choice is yours.

So much great information, orsetto, and once again I thank you for taking the time to break it all down for me. I will most likely pick up the Panasonic DMR-EH59GA-K in the next week or two. You made a number of good points as to the advantages of recording to a HDD first vs. directly to an RW disc, and I'm beginning to see the light.

Now, it's my understanding that the Panasonic I'm considering was manufactured for non-US consumers and it has been adapted for US use? I believe B&H includes some sort of adapter for US customers?

[jjeff]

Now, it's my understanding that the Panasonic I'm considering was manufactured for non-US consumers and it has been adapted for US use? I believe B&H includes some sort of adapter for US customers?

I have a EH-59 and really like it. I believe it was made for the middle east but includes a universal power supply and adapter to go from the euro standard plug to the N. American standard. It has also been made region free to be able to play and record all DVDs. It has NO tuner for N. American use(digital or even analog) but as a line input recorder it works great.
As a Pioneer user you'll appreciate the FR recording system but it may take a bit of getting use to if your use to Pioneers MN variable speed settings.
Don't be scared off by how the US resellers of the international Panasonics advertise them, they work with PAL and NTSC(our recording system) it's just a setting as to what format you want to record in. The EH recorders aren't of the build quality of your 7000 but they are built better than anything else currently available and IMO their recording quality can't be beat.

[Maldez]

I have a EH-59 and really like it. I believe it was made for the middle east but includes a universal power supply and adapter to go from the euro standard plug to the N. American standard. It has also been made region free to be able to play and record all DVDs. It has NO tuner for N. American use(digital or even analog) but as a line input recorder it works great.
As a Pioneer user you'll appreciate the FR recording system but it may take a bit of getting use to if your use to Pioneers MN variable speed settings.
Don't be scared off by how the US resellers of the international Panasonics advertise them, they work with PAL and NTSC(our recording system) it's just a setting as to what format you want to record in. The EH recorders aren't of the build quality of your 7000 but they are built better than anything else currently available and IMO their recording quality can't be beat.

Well, I like the sound of everything, and have my finger on the trigger. Looks like B&H has the lowest price around at $325 for the DMR-EH59.

My biggest concern with going to an HDD machine is how the heck do you find anything you've recorded on the drive? It's been likened to a gigantic RW disc, so I assume everything you record is just in chronological order as the recordings are made. So with hundreds of hours of recordings possible to your HD do you just have to scan fast forward and until you find what you're looking for? If you could actually arrange recordings into folders that would be awesome but I never heard anybody mention anything like that and the pluses of an HDD were gone over in quite some detail.