What's up with the JVC DR-10MS's black level?

[trock]

I got my new JVC DR-10MS today and did some test recordings. I was copying recorded movies from my TIVO to DVD. After I finalized the disks and played them back in my usual Pioneer DVD player through the same TV set that is connected to the TIVO I noticed that they looked washed out compared to the originals (I was able to switch back and forth to compare directly).

In doing some checking I realized that it was probably the setup (black level) that was wrong. There are no black level options in any of the menus and no black level switch on the 10MS so, other than a proc amp to restore the black level, what is the solution?

But, more importantly, why is it happening? Shouldn't I just be able to record to DVD with the 10MS and have it look pretty close to the original?

Thanks for any insight.

Edit:

On further checking it seems to be between the TIVO (a Sony) and the JVC because I've now established that the JVC is recording a pretty accurate respresentation of what it's receiving.

Has anyone else run into this when going from a TIVO to a DVD recorder?

trock

[Epicurus8a]

Just a guess, perhaps some automatic circuitry has latched onto a false "zero black" and is automatically raising it by 7.5 units. Where and why this is taking place is difficult to tell. Try several recording from several different channels, and several different playback machines (an un-protected DVD or VHS, camcorder, etc.) If you can narrow it down to one channel or one piece of equipment, this should help you decide how to procede.

Maybe you just need to call the cable company or the network and complain. I know for a fact that some programming is produced with multiple setup levels, because video editors don't have waveforms, don't know how to use them, or simply don't care. Same goes for SOME of the people in distribution facilities. (Veteran TV OPS know this is true.)

[lordsmurf]

The JVC is the most perfect recorder I've ever seen, in terms of maintaining tonal quality and proper gamma/contrast. It has no black level bug, unlike many other recorders. It is set to the proper IRE.

[gshelley61]

LS is right. We went through this "washed out" recording thing with the JVC a few months ago, and after several people did some testing and posted the results, the JVC proved to be very accurate in reproducing what is fed into it. The DigiPure pre-encoding video signal processing may enhance some light areas of the image ever so slightly, but that's about it.

[vhelp]

Can someone be nice and post a coupld of pics demonstrating this
"black level" bug ??

I am curious to see.

My ADVC-100 has a switch to set the IRE to eaither a ( 0=NTSC ) or ( 7.5=PAL )

If I set it to 0, picture is light. In most cases, this perfectly fine for
my need.
.
If I set it to 7.5 then my picutre is noticably darker. Ihave found (advc-100
testing w/ vhs sources) that if I set my unit to 7.5 IRE, I get (on some vhs
movies) a noticeably better picture (or better control of the color when I use
TMPG to encode it)

In sharing a little bit more detail in my endeavors ...

FWIW.. I'm debuggin my advc-100 w/ vhs materials because it is not a good recipe
and I'm trying to find solutions to this setup problem.
.
The "black level" bug might help me to understand what it is that I'm doing, and
guide me elsewhere's. Or maybe not.

Anyways, thanks guys, for your support,
-vhelp

[FulciLives]

In regards to the Canopus ADVC-100 you are to set it to 7.5 IRE when the input is NTSC unless it is Japanese NTSC then you set it to 0.0 IRE.

You also use 0.0 IRE if the input is PAL.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[vhelp]

@ fulci

That's what I thought too.., when I firt got it, and I recall directing others
(here, I think) to do the same thing.
.
It was only later, after many testings, that I came to the conclusions that you
should set it to 0 for NTSC materials.

I think the ADVC-100 is switched reversed. Just like on some older version of
TMPG's. Where it's Field Order "fields" were either swaped or miss-labled
or combo of both I think it's the same thing that has happended in the ADVC.
(though, I could be wrong) Anyways. I think I said this a year ago or so.
I don't remember. It's ben a long time, and w/ age, my memory slips. The older
I get, the faster the slipige, hehe.

-vhelp

[FulciLives]

Well I never personally used the Canopus ADVC-100 but it should work the way I said so above so ...

1.) It really is the opposite as you say or ...
2.) You are doing something "screwy" in your post processing steps (such as the encoding step) that is throwing off the luminance levels.

This is why I capture YUV, filter YUV with AviSynth and encode YUV with CCE. No colorspace conversions which can screw up your black level or luminance levels.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[trock]

Yes, as I already mentioned, I've demonstrated to my own satisfaction that the JVC is reproducing pretty well what is put into it (except when it's giving me the dreaded "Loading" error, which has happened twice, so far).

The black level problem seems to be coming out of the TIVO's secondary outputs (although its black levels are fine when going to the TV through its main outputs via a receiver). Both movies that I copied are fine when originally played on the TIVO but washed out when they get to the JVC.

I'll do some more tests but right now it seems that for whatever reason, as Epicurus8a suggests, it seems that the black level is being raised either before it gets to the JVC or by how the JVC is reacting to the TIVO input. I'll narrow it down this weekend.

I'm curious to know if any others have observed this problem specifically when going from a Sony TIVO?

trock

[vhelp]

Post EDITED by vhelp

@ Fulci and Trock

my appoligies for the post mix up..

@ fulci

Sorry again. I must have confused you in my above comments

The ADVC-100 and its IRE settings ...

First, I have no color space problems (none specifically)
I was only describing my experience when I was working on some VHS
projects with my ADVC and experimenting w/ the IRE values of this device.
I was sharing my experience and I was found, based on my OP.
.
I'm perfectly happy w/ my ADVC device. I have no issues. It's flawless.
As far as color space goes w/ this device.., I see no issues with it (so far)
..but w/ the exception for VHS sources. It sucks. That's the truth.., from me.

-vhelp

[vhelp]

@ trock

So you're saying that this black level bug is *only* happening when
your source connections are w/ your Sony TIVO unit ??

I take it you tried w/ VHS and DVD players, then ?

-vhelp

[vhelp]

@ trock

The reason I asked about the VHS and DVD players, was because I think I knew
what you are refering (though no one has posted any pics to help me) Anyways..

With my Cannon ZR-10 DV cam, it had this really bad color washout that drove me
crazy. I couldn't figure out why it was only w/ the ZR-10 until I realized that
it was a bug in the curcitry that caused this color issue. With my TRV22, this
bug is non-existant. And, the test equipment I used was pretty much everything.
VHS; DVD; Satellite Rec'ver; Antenna etc. Then, when I got the ADVC-100 every
thing was perfect as far as color space goes and the color washout I was
experiencing back then.
.
But, if this black level is what I think it is ( like my ZR-10 ) then no other
sources (vhs;dvd etc) will matter.. the color space issue (or black level) will
still be washed out (if its the same thing I'm talking about)

Weather it's the black level or color washout issue, I don't think that any
color corrector will fix it. The reason, is based on my experince. You might
get it too "feel" or "look" like it is fixed w/ these color enhancers, but in
all honisty, you can't fix what is already ingraved in the video. I've tried
this w/ my SIMA SCC to no avail. The source (after you JVC get it) is ingraved
in the video. It's a new video.

An Idea with an black level scenario ...

But, I have an idea. If you want to try it. If you have the ADVC, then maybe
you could try and plug in your sources as usual, but run the output either of
two ways:

** Source --> JVC --> ADVC-100
** Source --> ADVC-100 --> JVC

And while you do that, switch the IRE (dip switch number 2) and record as usual.
See if it does anything to your source's color level (whatever it is)

-vhelp

[trock]

I've now read the earlier threads about washed out recordings with the 10MS - I had missed them before because I searched under "black level" and similar terms. I'm glad I'm not the only one that has noticed this and I did see another user specifically mention the problem when going from a TIVO.

The differences I'm seeing are not the slight ones mentioned or shown by some but are just like the difference between 0 and 7.5 IRE. As others have mentioned, they do vary depending upon the source. If you really want to see the difference, try recording "The Ring".

"Formula 51", for instance, shows the difference a bit less dramatically because the source is very different than "The Ring" in terms of contrast, color and sharpness.

@vhelp, I'll be doing more tests with different machines as the source this weekend. I can't do any tests with the ADVC-100 because I sold mine as I wasn't happy with its caps from VHS sources.

trock

[gshelley61]

I suppose the video processor in the JVC, having automatic video level controls and such, may be sensitive to certain sources that have unusually bright sections, etc. Kind of like the way cameras with automatic exposure circuits will do fine on some shots, but will appear under or over exposed on other shots. That's why I use the SignVideo Proc Amp on every cap now... even if no adjustments are required, I can use the Luma and Black Level meter to be sure I've got a signal that stays within the correct parameters and isn't going to overwork the processor in the JVC.

[trock]

Yes, I'm definitely going to have to use the SignVideo Proc Amp, especially when going from the TIVO. I just wasn't expecting it and it's a bit of a pain because the SignVideo is in the studio and the TIVO is in a different room. Guess I'm in the market for a 2nd SignVideo.

[gshelley61]

You can never have too many pieces of gear around... 8)

OK, well maybe you can -

[trock]

You can never have too many pieces of gear around... 8)

OK, well maybe you can -

Well, I set up a series of switchboxes so that I could instantly compare on the same calibrated monitor the signal direct from the JVC 9911 and the same signal going through the JVC 10MS and it's fine, same black levels, no washed out signal (a relief).

So far, it's only when going from the TIVO that the black levels are shot up by what looks like 7.5 IRE. And the SignVideo Proc Amp fixes that fine.

Thanks for all your feedback and help. This is a great forum!

[trock]

I just finished re-recording "Formula 51" using the SignVideo to correct the black levels and adjust the saturation and I have to say I join the ranks of those very impressed by the JVC DR-M10's quality.

It made a really beautiful DVD that looks better than the original. Very nice!

[spiderman2k1]

Black level might have change little when you played it back on you Tivo. Then when you record to the JVC its a second generation copy. Copy from your cable box and the problem might go away.

[trock]

Thanks but the movies are already recorded on TIVO so I can't copy them from my cable box. And the SignVideo does a great job of correcting the black level.