Getting ready to digitize some VHS tapes. *New questions*

[Crow550]

*Check last page*

I'm pretty new to this. I have been doing research. It's kinda overwhelming.

So I have a bunch of Home videos and what not on VHS. I would like to try and digitize them in the best quality I can. I know not to expect too much out of this.

I picked up a JVC HR-S3800U. Also just bought an ATI Theater 750 usb. Can return it if you recommend something else. I picked USB because my video cards fan is blocking the PCI Express slot.

My PC specs:

AMD Phenom 9100e Quad-Core 1.80 GHz

4GB of ram

640GB 16mb cache & 1TB 32mb cache drives both Sata 3GBs 7200RPM. As well as a 200GB external. Also just got the 1TB drive haven't installed it yet.

ATI HD 4670 1GB which can help with GPU accelerated video encoding.

So what capture software to use?

What format should I digitize in? How good can you clean up noise from a VHS? I do plan to do some basic editing.

Thanks for taking time to read this & help me. This seems like the forum to ask.

I look forward to diving into this project and digitizing my stack of tapes. I'm also a fast learner.

[PuzZLeR]

I've actually never tried the ATI Theatre, so I can't comment on it. But I can tell you what this forum usually cheers for in this department.

The usual top choice for VHS -> digital is undoubtedly the Canopus ADVC110. It captures to a DV format which, for VHS capture, you will find no better IMO. DV is the best format I know of that makes me feel safest throwing away an original tape once captured.

DV is 13GB/hr, but it's intra-frame and captures/preserves high quality. It's also editable with many consumer level editors like VideoStudio for example, and if you keep this as Source you will have many high quality options such as MPEG-2/DvD, DivX, Xvid, iPod, H.264, even blu-ray if you dare.

When edited and you're ready to encode the DV, use a separate stand-alone encoder for best results depending on the format (not your editor).

Learn some AviSynth. It has many filters, and many will be helpful for VHS. This is highly subjective and you may want to do searches and tests firsts for this.

If you wish to capture to MPEG-2, or that's all the ATI can do, understand you are losing some quality compared to a DV capture. If you're fine with this, at least you have smaller file sizes and automatic DvD compatibility.

But if capturing to MPEG-2, a very compressed format, make sure you don't do anything else with your PC since it's much more CPU intensive. You do have the specs I can see, but nevertheless, read up on posts here about how to avoid dropping frames. It could still help.

As well, when editing MPEG-2, use a dedicated MPEG editor such as Womble, VideoReDo or TMPGEnc MPEG Editor since they only re-encode at points where you made edits (and save you time and quality).

Hopefully I gave you a good start. I'm sure others here can help you.

Welcome to the Forums.

[Crow550]

Thanks. I got the ATI Theater 750 card for $50 which is normal price. Not a bad price for a capture card. Doesn't ATI usually do a good job digitizing analog video & enhancing the picture on the fly? I also want to DVR some TV shows over the air. The VCR I picked up at a Second Hand store was $3-$4 bucks with the remote like I'll use it and in good shape.

I haven't installed the 1TB drive yet. I will in early November when I get more ready to start digitizing tapes. It's a Seagate Barracuda 1TB 32mb cache 7200rpm it was $75 plus tax on clearance at Wal-Mart. Does the Barracuda line offer anything special?

I mean Newegg.com is getting some good deals....Black Friday is coming....So should I look for another deal or what?

[PuzZLeR]

JVC is usually the brand recommended for VHS capture. You got a great deal, especially since it's in good shape.

I don't doubt the ATI card is high quality, and it does have that bonus of capturing television too. But most here will recommend a dedicated device/app to a particular function, not multipurpose-ware, and the Canopus, with the DV format, is the best choice here for VHS capture. Just echoing.

Depending on how your budget is, and if the highest quality captures of your VHS tapes are important, you can still use the Canopus for your VHS captures, and your ATI for your TV captures. You are not restricted to just one-for-all. I do this all the time myself - even use several encoders and editors depending on what I wish to do for best results. Again, it's your choice.

I haven't installed the 1TB drive yet. I will in early November when I get more ready to start digitizing tapes. It's a Seagate Barracuda 1TB 32mb cache 7200rpm it was $75 plus tax on clearance at Wal-Mart. Does the Barracuda line offer anything special?

Yes, good brand and fast specs - make sure you have cache writing enabled and a good power supply. (I like the LaCie all-black Poulton design drives myself.) But other than reliability of data, or quicker access, there are no other extra advantages for your VHS captures here.

But the best brand for storage in my opinion is almost immaterial if you back up your data to multiple drives/discs/etc since it would be a virtual impossibility for all of them to break down at the same time. I feel safe with any brand this way - especially since I also keep stuff in multiple physical locations too.

[2Bdecided]

I don't doubt the ATI card is high quality, and it does have that bonus of capturing television too. But most here will recommend a dedicated device/app to a particular function, not multipurpose-ware, and the Canopus, with the DV format, is the best choice here for VHS capture. Just echoing.

Why are you saying this? There are several threads here showing the ATI 650 to have excellent quality - in many aspects far surpassing that of the Canopus device (though I don't think the differences matter too much for VHS)

Apologies if I've got the model numbers mixed up, or if the USB version isn't as good - but if I've remembered this correctly, then you're giving the OP terrible advice.

Cheers,
David.

[jagabo]

The ATI 650/750 devices do deliver good quality except for one thing: their automatic gain control can't be disabled and they end up blowing out brights, crushing blacks, and over saturating colors at times.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/326560-Which-is-better-usb-stick-vhs-cap-or-hd-pvr-...=1#post2023227

[Lodovico]

The ATI 650/750 devices do deliver good quality except for one thing: their automatic gain control can't be disabled and they end up blowing out brights, crushing blacks, and over saturating colors at times.

Yes, that's the main reason I stopped using my 750-based capture card. I could see the effect even when switching between menu screens on my VCR. Presumably it's a feature that customers like when they're just using the card to watch TV ("Hey, my computer fixed the contrast all by itself!"), but it makes the card unsuitable for recording and archiving.

[2Bdecided]

Thanks for that jagabo - I'd seen several threads where people extolled the virtues of the ATI 650, and laughed at those of us still using Canopus boxes.

Sorry PuzZLeR - you carry on! Though I think there are decent ATI cards without this "feature" that will do just fine. I prefer the convenience of DV.

Cheers,
David.

[jagabo]

Thanks for that jagabo - I'd seen several threads where people extolled the virtues of the ATI 650, and laughed at those of us still using Canopus boxes.

That was one reason I bought one. Also because I got it cheap. I don't do much SD analog capturing anymore, I just wanted to play with it. I agree with Lodovico, the AGC problem rules it out as a serious capture device. That's unfortunate because otherwise it's one of the best I've seen.

[PuzZLeR]

I don't doubt the ATI card is high quality, and it does have that bonus of capturing television too. But most here will recommend a dedicated device/app to a particular function, not multipurpose-ware, and the Canopus, with the DV format, is the best choice here for VHS capture. Just echoing.

Why are you saying this? There are several threads here showing the ATI 650 to have excellent quality - in many aspects far surpassing that of the Canopus device (though I don't think the differences matter too much for VHS)

Apologies if I've got the model numbers mixed up, or if the USB version isn't as good - but if I've remembered this correctly, then you're giving the OP terrible advice.

Cheers,
David.

Hi David, I never said ATI wasn't any good and I admitted that I haven't used it. And I would never put down a company for no reason, especially one that is also local here in the Toronto area, especially when I deal with a few of their reps.

I was echoing what I've read - that the Canopus ADVC110, and the DV format, was the most frequently recommended on this Forum for VHS capture, and it is. However, "most frequently recommended" is not synonymous with "best", so the ATI could be "better" then. But it has proven to be problematic at times when I have yet to see this with any conviction regarding the Canopus products.

As well, I hear lots about BlackMagic's great quality - again true, but problematic with VHS.

As for TV, or even HD, the ATI and/or BlackMagic may indeed be "far surpassing" from Canopus in the latters (whatever can do what).

Sworn true statement: A representative from BlackMagic, who previously worked for Canopus even recommended the ADVC110 when speaking to me for VHS capturing as the best. If my integrity is at risk I will get him to post here as proof.

So my friend, this is the information I based my post on. I also find that the Canopus is solid, reliable and problem free here too.

Sorry PuzZLeR - you carry on! Though I think there are decent ATI cards without this "feature" that will do just fine. I prefer the convenience of DV.

It's all good my friend - if I'm wrong I do appreciate corrections instead of going on and looking stupid, which is also actually how some of us learn something here.

Actually I did recommend the O/P use his ATI for his TV captures, since it's built for that. But, yeah, like you, I like the classical approach of DV, as well as its advantages for pretty much any SD capturing whenever I can use it.

Geordie.

[Lodovico]

I'll just add that I have a Canopus box (ADVC110) which also has an AGC-like problem.

The problem is documented here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/268583-Brightness-fluctuation-problems-capt-from-VHS-thru-ADVC110

[Crow550]

So I will have to do some tests and see if I have the auto gain issue then? Is the software that came with it ArcSoft Total Media 3.5 good enough to capture video?

What about my other questions?

Also price estimates on the Canopus box?

Thanks for all your different opinions and views.

[Crow550]

I ordered some S-video & Audio cables as well as a 6FT male to female usb cable from Monoprice. Should be here by the weekend.

Later on Today I will capture a video and see how it turns out using a regular composite video cable. Unless I can find an extra S-Video cable lol.

I still have some questions I asked in previous posts that no one has answered....I also have another one. Does this VCR have TBC? How important is it?

[jagabo]

JVC HR-S3800U... Does this VCR have TBC?

The description at JVC's web site doesn't mention one.

How important is it?

Depends on how picky you are. If you want the best possible caps a line TBC is critical. Especially if you are going to make DVDs (all the horizontal motion of every scan line without a TBC sucks up bitrate in MPEG encoding).

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/230650-Confused-Why-a-VCR-with-TBC-if-separate-TBC-needed-anyway

If your tapes are in bad condition a standalone full frame TBC will help you maintain A/V sync during your caps.

So what capture software to use?

I'd try VirtualDub.

What format should I digitize in?

AVI with HuffYUV compression for the video, uncompressed PCM for the audio.

How good can you clean up noise from a VHS?

Take a look at Neat Video for VirualDub. If that's too rich and/or slow for you there are lots of other filtering options for VirtualDub. 2D Cleaner, Temporal Smoother, MSU DeNoiser, etc.

Remember that anything you capture from VHS will be interlaced and should be handled as such.

[Crow550]

Can't convert it to progressive video?

[jagabo]

Are you PAL or NTSC?

You can inverse telecine NTSC film sources, and deinterlace pure interlaced sources. The latter will result in a loss of quality.

[Crow550]

are you pal or ntsc?

You can inverse telecine ntsc film sources, and deinterlace pure interlaced sources. The latter will result in a loss of quality.

Ntsc

[Crow550]

Really I just want to digitize these VHS tapes. They aren't getting any uh er younger....I just want as straight of a transfer as possible then later worry about cleaning up the picture & such.

I have been putting off this project for so long. I mean 2010 is almost over. Gotta do this sometime soon.

I guess I can digitize all the tapes now and then keep an eye out for VCRs that offer TBC....This is so overwhelming lol.

I also have to see if I am gonna suffer with the AGC problem. I get the S-Video & Audio cables this Friday.

Also should I use the audio inputs on the capture card or my sound cards line-in which is an X-FI Xtreme Music?

[jagabo]

Also should I use the audio inputs on the capture card or my sound cards line-in which is an X-FI Xtreme Music?

On the capture card. Using the audio card is asking for A/V sync problems.

[Crow550]

I remembered I had some Sima thing. LOL! I just dug it outta my closet. Would this help at all? Sima model: sed-cm. I need to find the power plug. Would this be of use or not? Here's the manual: http://www.simaproducts.com/support/files/sedcm.pdf

Here's the manual of the HR-S3800U: http://resources.jvc.com/Resources/00/00/99/LPT0348-001A.pdf

[jagabo]

The Sima will remove macrovision from commercial VHS tapes.

[PuzZLeR]

Really I just want to digitize these VHS tapes. They aren't getting any uh er younger....I just want as straight of a transfer as possible then later worry about cleaning up the picture & such.

I have been putting off this project for so long. I mean 2010 is almost over. Gotta do this sometime soon.

Tapes are crumbling. The conditions of current VCRs are aging and finding newer ones are getting more rare. Technology for VHS -> Digital has reached the Law of Diminished Returns - the last 5 years have shown very little in improvements in methods/equipment and I expect this rate of increase to be even less the next 100+ years.

If you were to draw this on a graph as a function of time, I think all the curves reach an equilibrium/optimization in 2010. Definitely now is as good a time as ever to do this task.

I guess I can digitize all the tapes now and then keep an eye out for VCRs that offer TBC....

Nope. TBC's are only good for VCR playback, not when it's already in digital format. If you want to benefit from a TBC you'd have to redo the whole thing again if you get it later, external or internal.

However, if you want to take this project seriously, it won't hurt to invest in a full-frame TBC which is roughly $200-$400 new (less if used). Yeah, it's money, but wouldn't it be worth it if you only have to do this project once and never again?

This is so overwhelming lol.

No kidding. But if you set yourself up correctly the first time with the right equipment and a few tests it will be just feeding the machine after mechanically and the PC will work unattended most of the time.

But here's a tip IMO. Do your least important tapes first - this way you can make any mistakes early on. By the time you reach your A-content, you may be an expert at this.

[Crow550]

Nope. TBC's are only good for VCR playback, not when it's already in digital format. If you want to benefit from a TBC you'd have to redo the whole thing again if you get it later, external or internal.

However, if you want to take this project seriously, it won't hurt to invest in a full-frame TBC which is roughly $200-$400 new (less if used). Yeah, it's money, but wouldn't it be worth it if you only have to do this project once and never again?

I meant I could digitize them and then when I find a TBC that's cheap re-digitize the VHS collection. However that would be a pain in the ass.

I don't recall any of the Home videos having any damage. They all play fine. Last I checked lol.

[Crow550]

Basically I want to digitize a tape, clean it up & edit if it needs it then convert it to divx video for a good balance of picture & compression.

[jagabo]

The biggest cleanup VHS can use is time base correction. Once digitized, sloppy time base can't be fixed and it makes everything else more difficult.

[PuzZLeR]

I meant I could digitize them and then when I find a TBC that's cheap re-digitize the VHS collection.

Why double your workload? As you said, it would be a pain and I agree. Unless you absolutely need something digitized right away isn't your time worth more than that for a few bucks?

I don't recall any of the Home videos having any damage. They all play fine. Last I checked lol.

Even non-damaged tapes can benefit from a TBC since there still will be jitter. If using DivX for your results, even with the slightest extra jitter you will still, either need more bitrate to handle that extra non-essential movement if using constant quality encoding, or get less quality for the same bitrate if using Nth pass.

The tiniest bit of jitter can still have an exponential negative effect on results, which also applies to other high compression formats like MPEG-2 or H.264.

Either way, even if bitrate is immaterial, the viewing experience always suffers when there's jitter (unless it's an intended effect).

We're not being hard on you. You can do without a TBC if you'll settle for average-to-good results. We're just letting you know that analog -> digital is not so straightforward. You can get it over with now for adequate results or invest for superior results a bit later.

[Crow550]

I understand and am on the prowl to find a VCR with TBC. I need to find that thread that had a list of the popular models.

The VCR I own does have a Video Stabilizer function according to the manual. I don't know how well it works for jitter as my cables still haven't arrived yet. So I haven't tried the VCR out yet. I realize that will not be as good as a real TBC system.

However I am seeing if someone out there will donate one to a second hand store or somewhere on the cheap. So hopefully soon I can come across one.

[classfour]

On the lower JVCs the video stabilizer tries to recover a shakey tape, and does not perform the TBC function.

I have an HRS-3911 that is like that. It's okay for viewing, mediocre for transfers.

Panasonic AG-1980 has the finest picture of all the VCRs that I own, but it's due for some head cleaning.

[jagabo]

The Panasonic ES15 DVD recorder has the ability to act like a line TBC and a full frame TBC. The TBC functions are active on the passthrough signal so you don't actually have to record onto DVD to get the benefit.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-wh...=1#post1983288

You can get these used in the USA on e-bay for US$50 to US$75. Recording to DVD is ok in 1 hour mode. VHS sources will show macroblocking in 2 hour mode.

[Crow550]

Picked up a JVC HR-S7800U. Woo!