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  1. Banned
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    So, considering all the fuss with temporal denoisers (no matter how good) causing all other types of issues (banding, ghosting, removal of detail, etc.), I thought: To avoid these problems, why not do it the old-fashioned way: Frame by Frame manual restoration. Of course, even for a 30 minute clip this would take a thousand years. But then I thought...maybe not with batch processing in a photo editing program, such as Photoshop or GIMP. Here's how the workflow would go:

    Export your IVTC'ed progressive frames into .jpeg files uding virtualdub (they will be numerically categorized in their own folder...although that would be ALOT of files..40,000 or so .jpeg images)

    2. Set up a good denoise filter setting in Photoshop.

    3. Load a series of those images in Photoshop and set up batch processing.

    3. Batch process the .jpeg images at a time, using the denoise feature.

    4. Save restored files in a new folder as you go.

    5. When complete, load the restored files in Virtualdub and save as an avi.

    6. Do any additional minimal denoising if necessary, with v-dub or avisynth.

    7. Encode, author and burn.

    The idea is that, since each frame is processed individually, alot of problems caused by video denoising scripts would be avoided.

    Any thoughts?
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  2. Member hech54's Avatar
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    1) jpeg is probably a bad idea.
    2) I don't think you ever really get individual frames from any video unless you have the film in hand.
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    I've done it.
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  4. There's no difference between what you describe and using spacial-only noise filters in a video editor. Except all the work! There's nothing in Photoshop that can't be done with video filters.

    And yes, JPG is not a good idea. Use PNG or uncompressed BMP.

    You'll lose precision by converting to RGB (for image export) too. And converting back to YUV as video again.
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    jagabo, don't sneak up on me like that, you scared me!! *gasps*
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  6. Originally Posted by unclescoob View Post
    I've done it.
    And so has everybody else, on occasion.
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  7. ....BECAUSE you need temporal denoising to maintain a flow between individual frames. Spatial denoising is fine, but you need the temporal thing happening too to keep the seamless flow between frames, to avoid flicker & stuff.
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    CHOWMEIN!!!! EY MAN, HOW ARE YA, YOU OLD FART! C'mere and give your uncle scoob a kiss!!
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    Don't worry, you won't catch anything. I've been semi-cured from Assholeism. I was in quarantine for a while, but all is well.
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  10. Originally Posted by chowmein View Post
    ....BECAUSE you need temporal denoising to maintain a flow between individual frames. Spatial denoising is fine, but you need the temporal thing happening too to keep the seamless flow between frames, to avoid flicker & stuff.
    Yes, that's true too. What looks good on a single frame often looks very bad in motion. And by using multiple frames the noise reduction filter can better determine what's noise and what's detail. The difficulty is in finding the right balance.
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  11. CHOWMEIN!!!! EY MAN, HOW ARE YA, YOU OLD FART! C'mere and give your uncle scoob a kiss!!
    Don't worry, you won't catch anything. I've been semi-cured from Assholeism. I was in quarantine for a while, but all is well.
    ... Jesus Christ Almighty... lol
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  12. Member hech54's Avatar
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    ...but can you get "individual frames" from something that has already been put to video? - IE...the same exact frames and amount of frames as the original film?
    Last edited by hech54; 28th Mar 2012 at 15:36. Reason: spelling
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  13. Originally Posted by hech54 View Post
    ...but can you get "individual frames" from something that has already been put to video? - IE...the same exact frames and amount of frames as the original film?
    Yeah, the frames can all be saved out individually as BMP or whatever. VDub's 'Save Image Sequence' can do it. I'm looking in VDubMod but assume VDub has exactly the same or similar.

    It's still a waste of time, though, and for no benefit at all.
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  14. denoisers works rather well on videos these days, neat, fft3d or my prefered one currently nlmeans gpu
    I work with img sequences a lot (bmp only) my workflow is 1-fix colors,levels 2-denoising 3- convert in img seq (with vdub) 4-fix frames manually with photoshop-like apps

    some food 4 thought i hope
    *** DIGITIZING VHS / ANALOG VIDEOS SINCE 2001**** GEAR: JVC HR-S7700MS, TOSHIBA V733EF AND MORE
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    I'm drunk and I love you guys right now. Manono, c'mere and give me a hug.
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    Plus, I can open the frames with paint or some other program and add things to the frames and save the final output for my new video. Like for instance, if someone is talking into an old-fashioned telephone, I can change each frame and redraw a big Polish salami to replace the phone. And add a glass of juice. See? fun stuff like that.
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  17. There's nothing new in your idea. That's why many editors have "save as image sequence" and "load image sequence" functions.

    For example:
    http://www.michaelstevenstech.com/XPrepairinstall.htm
    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/302625-What-prog-to-edit-frames-in-photoshop-n-put-...k-in2-timeline
    Last edited by jagabo; 28th Mar 2012 at 23:28.
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    I know it's not new. I just thought it would be a better choice. But then again, as stated earlier, the spatial filter is there for that. I just thought it would give cleaner results.
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    Sounds cool. At 29.972 fps, all you need for a short 15-minute video is about 27,000 frames. Have at it, unclescoob.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 21st Mar 2014 at 21:22.
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    Lmao!!!!

    Remember, they have to be big Polish salamis!!!

    And the character has to yell "swingin!"
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  21. This is a few days old, but I thought I'd add something:
    NeatImage is pretty much the best image denoising software/plugin available, correct?

    Well...there's a reason NeatVideo shares part of its name. The basic spatial algorithm is the same, but NeatVideo also incorporates temporal information to better differentiate detail from noise. Also, you can tweak the temporal radius and threshold to the point of eliminating temporal filtering, to the best of my understanding...which will give the kind of purely spatial denoising approach you're looking for, without the hassle of managing individual frames manually. It won't let you add Polish salamis, but that's what post-production packages are for.

    It's a shame NeatVideo is proprietary, because I'd love to know how it works...
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  22. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    "BEST" for certain kinds of images - yes. BEST for everything - NO. There are many spatial, temporal, and spatio-temporal denoisers out there, which have some overlap but are often geared toward rectifying specific problems. Use the right tool for the right problem.

    As DeNiro says in RONIN, "it's a toolkit; ya pick the tool for the job"!

    Scott
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  23. I agree that for video, no one denoiser is always the "best." I have a very stationary video that worked much better with MCTemporalDenoise than NeatVideo for instance, because it played to MCTD's strengths and NeatVideo's weaknesses (the shot had no large areas without detail to create a good noise profile from, but its simple motion made strong and safe temporal denoising easy).

    My "best" comment referred strictly to purely spatial denoising (e.g. single-image denoising). For that purpose, is there really anything else in the consumer-affordable ballpark that even attempts to compete on the same level as NeatImage/NeatVideo? (Although I suspect the answer is no, I don't mean it as a rhetorical question...speak up if you know one!) The noise-targeting algorithm is far more sophisticated and precise than typical spatial denoisers, even typical spatial denoisers that work in the frequency domain. There are surely corner cases where another spatial tool (like DeFreq*) will handle a harsh low-frequency interference pattern better, but if you had to rank spatial denoisers in terms of the tool you place closest to your workbench...

    Anyway, the point was that assuming NeatImage is the best spatial denoiser around, you can already use it for video without managing thousands of frames manually with Photoshop (etc.).

    *Speaking of DeFreq, sometimes I wonder if that's part of how Neatvideo works: Instead of letting the user manually locate frequency peaks, maybe Neatvideo takes the FFT of both the image and the noise profile, subtracts the latter from the former, then performs an inverse FFT...then limits the result by the results of temporal denoising or simpler spatial techniques.
    Last edited by Mini-Me; 3rd Apr 2012 at 23:10.
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  24. neat video version 3 is fantastic, it retain much details just so you know (plus the cuda support), the difference with the older versions is self apparent imo
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    I'm using an old version of NeatVideo (first generation, I think). Is the new one THAT different?
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    Not different. Better. Not THAT better. But definitely better.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 21st Mar 2014 at 21:22.
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  27. I'm using an old version of NeatVideo (first generation, I think). Is the new one THAT different?
    Not different. Better. Not THAT better. But definitely better.
    they had some changes to the temporal filter algorithm ( that's what i heard from one inside source) and on the spatial part they only worked on the performance and efficiency a lot of it. Ver 3 with cuda is almost 4-5 times faster than ver1
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    About 3-4 times faster if you have 'Cuda graphics, red-hot motherboard, 4GB RAM, and 3.5GHz-plus 4-core CPU to match. If you're a normal human being working for a living, it's about 2X faster than v1. Version 3's temporal function is visibly more effective.

    IMHO, that is.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 21st Mar 2014 at 21:22.
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    Sanlyn, where can I get some Polish kilbazas?
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    I get 'em at King Kullen. I hear the best deli's are in eastern Suffolk County. So far out, the gas will cost more than the sausage.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 21st Mar 2014 at 21:23.
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