vhs/hi8 search terms for learning

[dianedebuda]

Been reading and testing for a whole month or 2 in prep for vhs/hi8 captures. Only now starting to see how ignorant I am. So many repeated posts/answers show I'm not alone. How do you folks like jagabo, vaporeon80 and sanlyn find the time and patience to repeat answers over and over again for we newbies?

I'm finding a lot of my questions relate to not understanding concepts & terms. So, from the Capturing Correct Chroma and Hue Levels From VHS in the Capture forum, I see a lot of my concerns even though the OP is far above me in knowledge. I've only rudimentary knowledge of Chroma and Hue at this point, so all of the examples and sample videos there go over my head

But I am trying to collect search terms to have some idea what to look for in my captures. 2Bdecided wrote

usual VHS defects such as chroma shift and bleed, halos, ringing, dropouts, comets, ripples, tears, tape noise, rainbows

jacabo kindly posted an example for me about halos, so now I at least know what that is. I've seen posts showing tears, so got some idea about that. Any other terms useful for common vhs/hi8 capture problems?

2Bdecided also wrote

Decent VCR? No nasty analogue sharpening and denoising? line-TBC? Non-clipping luma levels? Non-clipping audio levels? No mains interference? Audio in sync? No dropped frames?

When I posted my first round of tests, jacabo said I needed a different vcr. For those tests, I was just using the lesser of my 2 vcrs to learn setup; saving better one for "real". Did inspire me find & purchase an svhs unit though. Hopefully I'll be able to search & see examples of good/bad sharpening (didn't even know my "better" vcr had control of that until now), noise and effects of external TBC and when it's needed.

For vhs, originally only had a dozen home movies to do. Thought I would give the vhs a shot with mpg2 and, if not good enough, send off to a pro. At this point, still going to do an mpg2 capture as a benchmark, but plan for avi "for real" and go from there. When I was looking for the first tape to use as a sample, discovered a bunch of other vhs tapes that are not home movies, but tv captures of other stuff that would be difficult to get again, like figure skating competitions, a couple of specials and a He-Ra/She-Ra Christmas special that my kids watched endlessly. Since those were at 6 hr speed, going to be horrible captures and won't want to spend any time fixing 'em - but I'll have a chance at having them.

For we who are in deep water, thanks for the floaties.

[jagabo]

DCT ringing: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/294144-Viewing-tests-and-sample-files?p=1792973&vie...=1#post1792973

Chroma bleed, shift: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/352940-How-to-fix-Chroma-Bleed-with-AviSynth?p=2251...=1#post2251076
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/312852-Removing-Colour-Bleed?p=1933386&viewfull=1#post1933386
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/337469-color-bleed?p=2096432&viewfull=1#post2096432

[dianedebuda]

Those are great, jagabo. Was expecting words, not links. When I first looked, couldn't see anything. Took bouncing with dup tabs for some or reading the text before I "saw". Kind of worried now that maybe I shouldn't learn after all - ignorance is bliss? Once you "see", you can never "go back".

Reading some of these posts is fascinating. On a long one now Advice on what filters to use when converting VHS to AVI that's right up there with some good whodonits. Fixes to video there are (to me) amazing.

[jagabo]

Comets/dropouts: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/357149-Can-someone-create-a-comet-removal-Avisynth-...=1#post2260833
They can be black or white.

Time base jitter: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/306272-Computer-video-capture-vs-vcr-to-dvd-combo?p...=1#post1882662
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-wh...=1#post1983288

[dianedebuda]

Again, jagabo, those links are great. Have been reading the Vhs/DVD clarity question thread. Tons of good stuff there for newbies. You can't image how excited I was when some defects were mentioned and I actually saw them before they were explained to Oldretiredguy! First step for finding on my own, I hope.

I have some questions about that thread's contents. Don't want to hijack. Where's an appropriate spot for "I don't understand this in that thread".

[jagabo]

I have some questions about that thread's contents. Don't want to hijack. Where's an appropriate spot for "I don't understand this in that thread".

This thread is probably as good as any.

[dianedebuda]

Showed these examples to my hubby - he "saw" the problems almost instantly. Don't know whether to envy or pity him.

vcr: have a Sony SLV-N60 and, just like oldretiredguy, a JVC HR-S7500U. Tested Sony (composite only) with APC on/off & Sharping levels 1-4; JVC with composite/svideo, TBC/NR on/off, R3 on/off. So far, looks like Sony APC=on & Sharp=2 is giving me the best picture with my sample vhs tape of a short segment from a movie from cable. A little surprised, but could be I'm overlooking something or it's the sample I'm using. From what I understand, the Sony may be gentler to the tapes than the JVC. I damaged a test tape by repeated rewind/play for short segment tests & I think I was using the JVC.

capture device: have tested an ATI AIW Radeon 32 AGP, ATI 550 pci, ATI 650 pci, Hauppague HD PVR and (for dv) Sony TRV480. So far the 550 is giving the best results with the vhs tape. Only drivers I've gotten to work with it is what was natively installed with CMC.

capture software:
(for avi = Primary) Huffyuv v2.1.1 - CCESP Patch v0.2.2, LordSmurf's VirtualDub 1.9
oldretiredguy seems to be using newer versions; better to use what I've got or update? avisynth & DGIndex were also mentioned in his thread. Are these needed for capture or just only post-capture; will skip on XP capture box if not needed there. Will be building a new apu box in the next few days with Win7/Win8. Has pci, so could use 550 there if vdub better on those o/s. Not dropping frames so far with the XP box.

(for direct to mpg = Secondary/benchmark) ATI CMC 1.0.1829. Just found it has custom profile option that I've missed 400 times. Need to research/test.

(dv: test for vhs/hi8, primary for Digital8) WinDV, (untested) Scenalyzer

System: XP sp2 on Athlon64 for capture, Win7 Pro on apu 6500K for processing.
Monitor: 25" lcd, 65" hdtv (primary), hd projector.
Target output: hdd/pc players. May do mpg or h.264 someday.
-------------------------
Following vdub setup in thread:

My Audio Device defaults to Capture Device; captures work with audio, but don't hear sound when recording. As seen elsewhere, Audio Preview causes dropped frames. Guess this is normal for the 550? Get warnings if I try to change audio input/source.

Timing Option, Resync Mode: in thread, No Resync and Auto disable resync if integrated a/v are selected. Integrated a/v is what I've got with a/v stream, right?

In https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/360511-Vhs-DVD-clarity-question?p=2286143&viewfull=1#post2286143, oldretiredguy posts a Video Proc Amp screen. Was going to ask where it was, but found something similar as part of the Capture Filter stuff. What's shown there is capture device dependent, correct?

In https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/343001-Using-VirtualDub-s-capture-filter-proc-amp?p...=1#post2136960, sanlyn says

The only controls I'm using are brightness and contrast to make a basic levels correction and save darks and highlights from destruction. Using the other controls is useless with VHS

If I understand this correctly, one would adjust brightness and contrast so they stay with range and leave all others alone for post-capture tweaking. The adjustments within vdub are set-and-try/repeat, not interactive unless the device has an non-vdub, independent UI.

Going back to try another VHS tape. Hope this one is an original; one I tried yesterday turned out to be a VHS copy of a hi8 HS band concert tape. Video-wise it was just terrible; audio was nice. Want to get a good foundation before trying my 1980-vintage tapes.

I'm getting to like green cats - very instructive.

[jagabo]

capture software:
(for avi = Primary) Huffyuv v2.1.1 - CCESP Patch v0.2.2, LordSmurf's VirtualDub 1.9
oldretiredguy seems to be using newer versions; better to use what I've got or update?

No need to update if it's working. I don't think anything has changed as far as video capture is concerned. I don't know what the CCESP patch involves. As long as it works on the capture and editing systems you should be fine.

avisynth & DGIndex were also mentioned in his thread. Are these needed for capture or just only post-capture; will skip on XP capture box if not needed there.

Not needed for capture.

Will be building a new apu box in the next few days with Win7/Win8. Has pci, so could use 550 there if vdub better on those o/s. Not dropping frames so far with the XP box.

The XP box is probably better for video capture. 550 drivers may not even be available for Win7/8. Or may be more limited.

(for direct to mpg = Secondary/benchmark) ATI CMC 1.0.1829. Just found it has custom profile option that I've missed 400 times. Need to research/test.

My Audio Device defaults to Capture Device; captures work with audio, but don't hear sound when recording. As seen elsewhere, Audio Preview causes dropped frames. Guess this is normal for the 550? Get warnings if I try to change audio input/source.

Yes, VirtualDub has audio issues like that with many capture devices. As long as you can get caps without dropped frames and A/V sync issues you're fine.

Timing Option, Resync Mode: in thread, No Resync and Auto disable resync if integrated a/v are selected. Integrated a/v is what I've got with a/v stream, right?

Yes.

In https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/360511-Vhs-DVD-clarity-question?p=2286143&viewfull=1#post2286143, oldretiredguy posts a Video Proc Amp screen. Was going to ask where it was, but found something similar as part of the Capture Filter stuff.

Yes, that's where it is.

What's shown there is capture device dependent, correct?

Yes, which controls appear and are active will vary depending on the driver.

In https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/343001-Using-VirtualDub-s-capture-filter-proc-amp?p...=1#post2136960, sanlyn says

The only controls I'm using are brightness and contrast to make a basic levels correction and save darks and highlights from destruction. Using the other controls is useless with VHS

If I understand this correctly, one would adjust brightness and contrast so they stay with range and leave all others alone for post-capture tweaking.

It doesn't hurt to adjust the other settings before capturing. The closer they are to "correct" the better off you are. But as long as they aren't terribly off you can fix things in post.

The adjustments within vdub are set-and-try/repeat, not interactive unless the device has an non-vdub, independent UI.

Yes. Though no doubt you've seen the posts about using GraphEdit or GraphStudio to adjust the proc amp interactively.

[dianedebuda]

Why when I think jagabo does it get typed as jacabo?

I saw a mention in oldretiredguy's thread about the jvc vcr bruising the tape. On a hi8 tape, I've seen a kind of rainbow at the beginning. Is this bruising? Not able to provide pic at this moment.

[sanlyn]

rainbows -vs- brusing = not the same things.

The staticky distortion nyou saw in some early frames in that thread was mistracking noise. In that particular case, the owner started the captyure too early, before the player's auto tracking adjustment kicked in. However bruising can have similar effects, but more often causes a big horizontal ripple or frame hop during play.

rainbows are chroma noise. Not much to be confused about the term "chroma". Think of it as another term for "color data" as opposed to luma or "brightness" values. The image below is from a thread some time back and is a reduced image of an original frame as captured, before processing. You can see rainbows in this small image, in the guy's blue shirt and in the background walls.

[Attachment 22894 - Click to enlarge]

Below, a 200% enlargement of part of the above frame. The rainbows in the guy's shirt are mostly green and purple. After some processing, it turned out the guy's shirt was really a different hue of blue. The rainbows in nthe background walls are a little harder to see, but they're yellow-green.

[Attachment 22896 - Click to enlarge]

The image below goes back a while. It's a 2.5X blowup of part of an original frame. It's a more serious case of all kinds of noise, most of it due to tape aging and poor storage and to several other causes. The arrows were added as a demo identify different types of noise. One of the problems is excvessive interlace combing, and a lot of the odd coloring and blocky grainy stuff is due in part to oversaturation, to the brightest colors being so bright that6 some hues were "clipped" and affected the original hues, and some shadow areas had poor dark level control and got "crushed" (i.e, grimy with no detail).

[Brad]

a He-Ra/She-Ra Christmas special that my kids watched endlessly

That actually has several DVD releases around the world. Toss that VHS!

[dianedebuda]

Hmm, might just skip that puppy altogether then. If I never hear it again, it'll be too soon.