VHS to DVD: Why aren't there any capture card buying guides?

[Brad]

It is extremely disappointing that our LCD and plasma displays are such one-trick (HDTV) ponys: standard-def low-res VHS looks really bad on them.

I wondered recently about whether the early 480p plasmas (worth no money today) would display digitized VHS/LD/etc. better than our displays that have to invent many more fake pixels. Any thoughts?

[handyguy]

A lot use EasyCap for about $8.50 on Amazon.

[vorp]

Never heard of any different hardware versions, or of this model number difference. Diamond also has a regular and a "V" variant of the 600 PCIe card, apparently. Probably just an updated driver CD in the package, or something.

There are at least two different CDs for the card, for the packaged software/drivers.

Thanks. Getting different CDs doesn't sound like that big of a deal since the drivers are posted on their website anyway.

It was originally sold directly by ATI, and I think another one of their graphics card partners as well.

That's right, I came across one sold by VisionTek (here is a listing on TigerDirect) which is stored in a square-shaped box. The ATI and Diamond boxes are rectangular.

I'd written a capture card buyer guide years ago. But there were like 2-3 good cards only, and everything else was varying degrees of junk.

It seems like that's still the case today, sadly. In that case, I guess there really is no need for a capture card buyer guide.

[...] Hauppauge Colossus [...]

Thanks, but I forgot to mention this in my original post, but I use a laptop, so I unfortunately won't be able to try the Hauppauge Colossus. I can only use USB products. I haven't yet read anything good about any USB Hauppauge products (for VHS capturing anyway), so I think I'll be avoiding this brand.

[...] It may be more practical to lower your expectations and use more ordinary, reliable, affordable VCRs. [...]

Reading your post kind of made me a little depressed. Now I'm thinking that maybe I should just try capturing first with a brand-new cheapo VCR from a big-box store before buying one of the better ones you mentioned. If I keep my expectations low, maybe I'll be satisfied with my results.

At the very least, I'll also want to buy a standalone TBC or a DVD recorder with TBC functionality, but the VCR comes first.

A lot use EasyCap for about $8.50 on Amazon.

I've read a little about this. Isn't there a long-running problem of counterfeit EasyCaps being sold everywhere? I'm a little bit worried about that.

At this point, I have my heart set on the ATI 600 USB. It's very well respected around here and many people use it, so hopefully other users will be able to answer my newbie questions when they inevitably arise. Now I just need to find one....

[orsetto]

Now I'm thinking that maybe I should just try capturing first with a brand-new cheapo VCR from a big-box store before buying one of the better ones

Heck, no, don't buy a junky new one! I don't think you could find a VCR in any store anyway: even the combo DVD player/VCRs have disappeared, and the most recent of those were awful. I always recommend people start by asking friends/family/coworkers if they have a VCR sitting around they no longer use. You can quickly amass a collection of 3 or 4 free VCRs this way, and when it comes to VHS digitizing, its a VCR numbers game: the more the better. If you don't want to ask people, then just look on Craigs List for any decent $20 second-hand Panasonic 4-head HiFi vcr (preferably a pre-2001 full-size model: the very small recent compacts were junk, esp the silver colored models).

Panasonic did not necessarily make the best-performing midrange consumer VCRs: like every other brand after 1993, they were at best mediocre. But the Panasonics tend to be much sturdier, the heads and transport more durable, and the remotes are easily/cheaply replaced. Unlike some of the other brands, Panasonic made few truly terrible models, so as long as you stay away from the final dinky series you can't really lose. Later, you can try other decent budget models like JVC HR-S5912 or Mitsubishi 449. Sharp also made a lot of nice VCRs, but they can be hard to find in nice condition with remote. Avoid all Sonys, older JVCs, and any older Mitsubishi that has a jog dial on the front panel: these all have fatal defects or strong potential to break down/eat tapes.

[dianedebuda]

Is there a resource to find manufacture year? Out of curiosity, tried to google for age of mine, but couldn't find anything. Not printed on units nor my manuals. I probably have a 2000ish Sony and a potential tape-eater JVC, but they are what they are. It might help the OP in his vcr hunt.

[orsetto]

Consumer Panasonic and Quasar models have the mfr month and year on the rear panel label (i.e. OCT 1997). The only really bad years for Panasonic were 1992-1993, otherwise most of them are pretty decent. Thru the 90s Panasonic alternated between compact 13"- 14" wide models and 16"-17" full sized. Overall there isn't a big difference in performance, but things got very confusing when they started recycling old model numbers from 1999-2002: those final tiny vcrs were junk, and many buyers get fooled on eBay thinking they're bidding on a quality older model. So as an easy visual reference, I recommend looking for a full-width model because those were discontinued before the line went to junk. If you're able to check the date, the small sleek 4500 and 4600 series from 1995-1996 were nice, the slightly larger vcrs from 1997-1999 were OK but things got dodgy in 2000.

With used JVC, you want to stick with the 3900 or 5900 model series. These were more reliable than most other JVCs, despite their dorky appearance. The rounded, blob-looking models were inconsistent, while the fancy, elegant-looking models are a total crapshoot: if they work well, great, if they don't, write 'em off and discard them because repairs are an expensive ordeal.

Mitsubishi made a lot of nice VCRs, but the older ones that look like tanks have mostly worn out and use custom electronic parts that are no longer available. 1995-1998 models have incredibly fragile loading slot frames made of a plastic that decomposes and crumbles within a few years and cannot be repaired. The final run of Mitsubishis were much sturdier, as the loader was redesigned. Look for the 448 & 449 (VHS), 748 & 749 (SVHS) and HS-HD2000U (DVHS).

Sony was all over the place quality-wise, made a lot of junker low to midrange models and several great high-end models that unfortunately used self-destructing, unrepairable power modules. Like many JVCs, most Sonys have problems cleanly tracking tapes that were recorded on other brand vcrs.

Toshiba, Hitachi, RCA, Phillips, Samsung, LG, etc had their good and bad models and years, too many to try and list here. Anything is worth a try if you can borrow it or buy it for $20: I've seen bargain-basement Emerson models that perform really well, but it depends on luck. Given how all VCRs are now aging relics, splitting hairs over which ones had the best playback performance is a losing game. The fancy JVC and Panasonic SVHS models with TBC/DNR are overpriced money pits that should be avoided in favor of the newer JVC and Mitsu DVHS series. Everything else, no matter how expensive it was in 1997, is today merely an ordinary VCR- a commodity you shouldn't pay more than $40 for. Those with no interest in shopping around should just grab a mid to late '90s Panasonic for $15-$30: there are tons available, most still work, and they rarely eat tapes.

[vorp]

A unique opportunity has just arisen for me. Some folks are unloading a lot of professional VHS decks and I have the chance to buy them for cheap. Anyone have any experience with the below? (I linked to their manuals/specs when available.)

• JVC BR-S811U
• Panasonic AG-1330
• Panasonic AG-1350
• Panasonic AG-7150
• Panasonic AG-7400
• Panasonic AG-DS555

Also available:

• FOR-A FA-300 TBC
• Panasonic DMR E30 DVD Recorder (does this have pass-through TBC capabilities?)

The JVC BR-S811U and Panasonic AG-7400 were priced in the thousands of dollars when they came out. I figure that if I can get one for $200 or less, that would be a super deal, even if it ends up requiring some additional maintenance.... that is, if they are worth using in the first place. They're all "professional" products, so I'd imagine that they were built with better parts than your typical VCRs... right?

The JVC BR-S811U lacks a built-in TBC though. Weird, for such a pricey device. The Panasonic AG-DS555 has a TBC. Not sure about the rest.

[orsetto]

[...]The JVC BR-S811U and Panasonic AG-7400 were priced in the thousands of dollars when they came out. I figure that if I can get one for $200 or less, that would be a super deal, even if it ends up requiring some additional maintenance....

You would think so, but no. There is pro gear that can be nicely repurposed for home use, then there is pro gear that should be allowed to die and be respectfully buried. The behemoth pro VHS decks usually fall into the latter category. Don't discount how huge and heavy they are: it makes them impractical to move around and fit onto a shelf, and if/when they crap out on you they're that much harder to yank off the shelf and troubleshoot. Service is not merely expensive: its VERY expensive, as pro decks require pro techs to work on them and salvage parts. Good luck finding a pro VCR tech in 2014.

More significantly, these pro decks don't generally play consumer-made tapes any better than an average consumer VCR (in fact, they're often worse because of tape mismatches). A few people have posted here claiming their particular Panasonic AG7500 (or whatever) plays with "the purity of the angels, with a clarity approaching dvd." How much of that is true, and how much is self-hypnosis brought on by not wanting to admit they spent $300 on a boat anchor, is open to conjecture. From what I've seen, a $300 DVHS from 2004 far eclipses any used $300 giant pro deck from 1994.

Could one of these bargains be a miracle for you? Sure, anything is possible, which is why I recommend trying as many VCRs as you can find. But once we're talking $200-$300, it usually pays to be safe rather than sorry, and buy a recent DVHS. If you can afford to roll the dice, or the company has a return policy or will let you try before you buy, the big Panasonic and JVC might be worth a shot. But if the deal is "as-is, where-is" you're taking a big chance. People have been trying to unload these big VCRs on eBay for years with little success: most end up as landfill.

Of all the decks on that list, the only one I would personally consider is the AG1330, which is a very sturdy bulletproof semi-pro model circa 1999. It was the non-hifi variant of the excellent AG2560 (of which I own three). The drawback of the 1330 is it only plays mono linear sound, no stereo at all, and most of us have stereo tapes. OTOH, if you don't care much about the stereo sound, and want to avoid fiddling with hifi tracking every five minutes, the 1330 is great. They sell for nothing on eBay, however: intrinsic worth today is about $30 (they were $250 new).

The For-A TBC might be a good deal, or might not. Depends on working condition and whether it comes with the remote (which is required to make any proc amp adjustments). Ex-professional TBCs typically sell for under $200, so don't pay more than that. Also note, none of the For-A models I've tested could completely remove MacroVision protection from VHS: one of they key tasks anyone needs an external TBC for. This FA300 seems newer, so may have adjustments allowing it to target the VBI more effectively. Hard to know without a user manual.

[Brad]

If you have a chance to test those VCRs in the flesh, you could bring your laptop with a USB capture stick to compare how they play your tapes (or rather, a comparable tape that you don't mind losing).

One important point that orsetto didn't mention is that the behemoths are SP-only. You need to pay attention to the outputs, as JVC's are XLR-only and use special 7-pin S-Video connectors. The equipment to convert these to consumer cabling can add $100+ to your budget.

[davideck]

The For-A TBC might be a good deal, or might not. Depends on working condition and whether it comes with the remote (which is required to make any proc amp adjustments).

The FA-300 does have proc amp controls behind the front panel for non remote applications. I think that it also has selectable vertical blanking, but I am not 100% sure. Macrovision was not an issue for me.

I no longer have access to this machine, but I recall using it instead of the TBC-1000 because it did a better job of line-by-line timebase correction without softening on "good" tapes. However, it was quite sensitive to marginal tapes and second generation copies actually looked worse through the FA-300.

[vorp]

As always, thank you, everyone, for the comments. I'll contact the seller and see what kinds of deals I can land.

If I can get a gigantic pro VHS deck for super, super cheap (like less than $50), I will go for it. Otherwise, it sounds like I should pass. I'll take a chance on the FA-300 if the price is right. At the very least, I want the AG-1330 and AG-1350.

I won't have the opportunity to test any of the devices, or to return for a refund. But I know that the seller is someone reliable and not out to rip people off. (I'll talk more about them later. I don't want to say too much right now in case someone somehow discovers who I'm talking about and swoops in to buy these before I do. )

More updates later.

[vorp]

Wonderful news. I was finally able to score the Panasonic AG-DS555. The adventure begins!

One thing I should have realized before deciding to pick up professional-level equipment is that my "normal" consumer-level cables won't fit without adapters. Could someone take a look at the back of this tape deck and verify that I'm buying the appropriate adapters?



For VIDEO OUT:

• One BNC male to RCA female adapter. Then plug in an RCA male composite video cable.
• Alternatively, use a normal 4-pin S-Video cable.

For AUDIO OUT, I think I'm only going to use the "NORM/Hi-Fi" output on the left:

• Two XLR female to RCA male adapters.

I doubt my old tapes have Hi-Fi audio, so is there any advantage to using the "Hi-Fi" output on the right? If there is, what kind of equipment would I need to allow four audio channels to be captured? Capture cards only have inputs for two audio channels.

I don't think I'll ever use VIDEO IN or AUDIO IN if I'm only using this tape deck for capturing, so those are not important.

[orsetto]

It sounds like you understand what connection adapters you'll need.

Re the audio jacks, for consumer tapes you would only use the outputs labeled "Normal/HifI" - these will play either normal linear audio or HiFi audio, or a mix of both, depending on front-panel audio settings. The outputs labeled "HiFi" cannot play anything but HiFi, so if you load a tape with no HiFi track you'll get no audio if using that dedicated HiFi connection. Having that separate dedicated HiFi output does enable simultaneous 4-track audio output (L+R Linear Stereo and L+R HiFi Stereo), but few to no consumer tapes were published that take advantage of that audio format. The feature was rarely used even by pros, other than in a handful of industrial or proprietary corporate/training video projects (which had alternate language or commentary on the linear tracks and primary audio on the HiFi).

[jagabo]

On most decks the linear tracks were mono.

[Brad]

One thing I should have realized before deciding to pick up professional-level equipment is that my "normal" consumer-level cables won't fit without adapters.

I tried to alert you of that in post 39.

A passive adapter won't be enough to properly change XLR to RCA, unless you're luckier than I was: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/352958-Pro-VCR-with-XLR-audio-output-I-m-stuck

I would like to see some video samples from this VCR once you get it set up. It's supposed to include a TBC unless the board was gutted.

[orsetto]

I doubt my old tapes have Hi-Fi audio,

This info just sunk in after re-reading your post. If this is true, I really hope you did not sink a huge sum of money into this Panasonic pro deck, because such tapes are usually the worst possible compatibility mis-match for it. Old consumer tapes without hifi audio were overwhelmingly recorded on budget 2-video-head VCRs. Their narrow video heads were optimized for EP operation, so their SP recordings suffer when played on 4-head VCRs, and play worst on pro-level decks that have the ultrawide SP-only video heads. These pro decks pick up a lot of extra noise and grain from old consumer 2-head tapes, which is one of the reasons they aren't a universal improvement over consumer decks. Still, a handful of owners swear the detail improvements compensate for the added noise, so you may get lucky.

Checking for the presence or absence of the optional internal TBC should be easy: flip the switch on the front panel and see if the indicator lights up. Further TBC adjustments may require the dedicated wired TBC remote controller.

Another gotcha to be aware of is this pro deck has built-in pro CTL time code, a feature that was retrofitted to the VHS format in a manner that precludes simultaneous use of both time code and linear (non-hifi) audio. If you don't get any audio from the NORM/HiFi connections, check the front panel to be sure NORM/Linear audio is selected and that CTL/SMPTE Time Code is turned off. If a tape includes HiFi audio, the dedicated HiFi audio output jacks will play HiFi regardless of the CTL Time Code setting (another reason this deck has the extra HiFi-only jacks).

[vorp]

On most decks the linear tracks were mono.

Even if that's the case, I'd feel more comfortable getting adapters for both channels. I'm not sure what I have on my tapes, so I'd rather be prepared.

I tried to alert you of that in post 39.

A passive adapter won't be enough to properly change XLR to RCA, unless you're luckier than I was: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/352958-Pro-VCR-with-XLR-audio-output-I-m-stuck

Because of my complete lack of technical knowledge, I guess I just read over that too quickly and expected that I would simply be able to get by using an adapter.

There's a lot of jargon in that thread you linked to. (hello_hello's and Cornucopia's posts appear to give detailed explanations, but I don't understand any of it.) I'm going to try using an adapter first because they are cheap. If that doesn't work, I'll buy the ART Cleanbox Pro like Cornucopia recommended.

What happens when you have an "unbalanced" RCA and "balanced" XLR connection together anyway? Does physical damage occur to the connected equipment? (In which case I would definitely need to pick up that ART Cleanbox Pro!)

I would like to see some video samples from this VCR once you get it set up. It's supposed to include a TBC unless the board was gutted.

I'll definitely post a video once I get to that point, mainly because I will probably need help with my capturing endeavors. I still haven't been able to get an ATI 600 USB yet. Soon, hopefully!

This info just sunk in after re-reading your post. If this is true, I really hope you did not sink a huge sum of money into this Panasonic pro deck, because such tapes are usually the worst possible compatibility mis-match for it. [...]

I didn't spend a lot of money on this, but don't worry about that. I've put aside plenty of money for this pet project.

If it turns out that this tape deck isn't good with my consumer tapes, I still have a bunch of professionally-made recording of TV shows and whatnot that could benefit from it. I'm not overly concerned at this point. I'm just very excited to have something. I'm still hoping to pick up at least one of the other Panasonic decks I previously listed.

Checking for the presence or absence of the optional internal TBC should be easy: flip the switch on the front panel and see if the indicator lights up. Further TBC adjustments may require the dedicated wired TBC remote controller.

Another gotcha to be aware of is this pro deck has built-in pro CTL time code, a feature that was retrofitted to the VHS format in a manner that precludes simultaneous use of both time code and linear (non-hifi) audio. [...]

I've attached a photo of the front of the deck. (Warning: Gigantic image alert!)

The TBC switch (bottom center of the unit) is in the "On" position. I don't see TBC indicated in the display, so maybe I don't have it.

There is a slot for the TBC remote. It's on the back of the unit next to VIDEO OUT. However, I don't have the remote. I unfortunately didn't know about the remote when I bought this and didn't think to ask about it.

Thanks for the heads-up about the CTL and linear audio. It looks like the CTL button is on the front, in the upper right.

Once I get the adapters, I'll hook this up to a CRT TV and start playing with it.

[NJRoadfan]

The AG-DS555 has a very good built in TBC complete with dropout compensation. I wouldn't worry about the timecode, it will play tapes without it and the tape counter will act like any consumer VCR. The AG-DS555 actually supported both linear timecode on the 2nd audio track, and timecode in the blanking interval.

Your tapes almost certainly have mono linear tracks and possibly stereo Hi-Fi tracks. Consumer linear stereo VCRs were only on the market for a short time and limited to a few models. Also be sure to disable the Dolby noise reduction on the linear tracks since your tapes were no encoded with it. It will make the audio sound worse.

[orsetto]

The TBC switch (bottom center of the unit) is in the "On" position. I don't see TBC indicated in the display, so maybe I don't have it.

With some of these Panasonics, it can be very hard to determine the presence or absence of TBC until they are hooked up to a display and you can eyeball whether changing the TBC controls alters the video at all. While I would agree with NJRoadFan that this particular model seems to have a permanently embedded TBC, the majority of similar Panasonics do not: the TBC is an expensive removable daughter card that is almost always harvested before the VCR is discarded or sold off. You never really know until you hook up a monitor and check (unless you know what the circuit itself looks like and can hunt for it under the hood)

There is a slot for the TBC remote. It's on the back of the unit next to VIDEO OUT. However, I don't have the remote. I unfortunately didn't know about the remote when I bought this and didn't think to ask about it.

From your pic, it looks like the TBC remote is not strictly necessary for this model, the remote connection is more for a studio board. You can operate most if not all TBC functions using the jog/shuttle dial on the front panel: you just need to change the Dial Mode switch (in the bottom group of little switches) from Search to TBC. While in TBC mode, it appears you also gain access to some Proc Amp adjustments. The bottom edge of the display panel at upper right has indicators that should light up to show whatever TBC/Proc Amp aspect you are adjusting. Be sure to flip the Dial Mode switch back to Search when you finish setting the TBC. The Dial Mode switch also has a Menu position which will let you change some operational settings that don't have obvious buttons.

Next to the TBC On/Off switch you have some form of DNR (noise reduction) that can be turned on/off: there may be adjustments you can make to DNR settings via the jog/shuttle dial when in TBC or Menu dial mode.

Thanks for the heads-up about the CTL and linear audio. It looks like the CTL button is on the front, in the upper right.

From your latest pic, it seems this model autodetects either CTL or audio on the linear tracks, so you may not have any worries in this regard: since your tapes won't have the rare VHS linear CTL, the unit should default to playing audio. The Audio Out switch (in bottom row) selects which audio plays from the XLR stereo audio jacks, and should be set to whatever track you want from the tape: HiFi or linear. The Audio Monitor switches control the separate monophonic Audio Monitor output jack located in the back panel Video Out grouping (just above the TBC Remote socket). If you have trouble with the balanced XLR jacks, you can use the Audio Monitor jack instead (it is a standard audio connection just like the one in consumer VCRs). The issue with the Audio Monitor jack is that it isn't stereo: it only plays mono (the switch lets you choose left channel, right channel or a mono mixdown). In a studio environment, the separate Audio Monitor jack was usually connected to a squawk box speaker built into the editor's control board for "rough" listening.

[houstonian73]

I apologize for posting this so long after the last post, but vorp, did you end up using your 555 much and what did you think of the picture quality? I have the opportunity to get a 555 for very little money but I'm not sure whether to get that or a different Panasonic model with the same head-switching noise masking feature as the 555, since I'm pretty set on using one with it if the playback quality is good. This page lists five Panasonic models that have the feature: AG -DS545, -DS550, -DS555, -DS840, -DS850. I've already bought a JVC BR-S525U which I may resell in favor of a Panasonic because of what I've read regarding picture quality on the JVC vs. some of the Panasonic pro decks.

I'm looking to transfer maybe 50 VHS 120-min tapes to hard drive, most of which were shot with VHS camcorders in SP mode in the 80's, 90's and early 2000's, and many of which look quite good even played back on my cheapo Panasonic 4-head consumer VHS VCR. I've got an ATI All-In-Wonder 9000 on an XP tower for capturing using lossless compression, as well as a Sony DCR-TRV33 mini-DV camcorder with passthrough for capturing the tapes as DV files if I decide to go that route (I'm planning to do a comparison eventually and I'd like to post screenshots if and when I find the time).

If I should get a Panasonic deck with the head switching noise masking, I'm wondering if the 555 will give me the best picture quality or whether someone has experience with the other Panasonic decks I listed above.

[NJRoadfan]

Head switching noise can easily be edited out post capture, I wouldn't worry about having that feature in the VCR.

[houstonian73]

There are a three main reasons I would like the switching noise masking. One is that I don't want to have to modify all the files post-capture. Another is that I don't really want to mask it with black on the bottom in order to retain 480 lines for various purposes such as making DVDs (that is, I don't want the lower portion of the picture to be black, or alternatively the top and bottom if I center the image - and I certainly don't want to zoom in on the image and make it look worse), and the other is that I want to retrieve those additional lines of video that would otherwise be lost, since there is actually more picture information visible when the switching point is changed.

Actually a fourth reason would be that I may do capturing for other people straight into a DVD recorder with no PC capabilities so I would like to be able to capture without the head switching noise in the first place.