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  1. I can play back a VHS or S-VHS tape using the Magnavox camcorder that originally recorded the tape. When I view it on the big screen (60"), the video is quite stable. The colour is over-saturated, there is a substantial chroma error as usual for this camera, and there is more camera motion than I would like, but the viewing is relaxed, and acceptable, even surprisingly good for 1988 tapes.

    I am capturing 720x480 using an Hauppauge HVR-1600 S-Video input, and currently using the VMR9 Video renderer. It uses hardware supported MPEG-2 encoding with a .TS wrapper. I don't seem to have control over it's data rate, which appears to be about 8500 kbps. It will convert the .TS file to a .MPG file. On it's advance option screen it allows use of third part video decoders for MPEG-2, and H.264 video. If I try capturing RAW video, it looks to me as if the MPEG-2 file from the Hauppauge card gets decoded, and saved as a raw file. To my eye, there appear to be compression artifacts.

    The resulting MPEG-2 video, without any additional editing, has problems:

    The main problem is that the overall viewing experience is awful, stressful. The captured video has a horrible nervousness to it that vastly exceeds what is seen when viewing the video from the camera through the S-video input to the TV.

    There are some other problems with the captured file:
    The resolution seems to have dropped.
    There are "Glitches" in the video that do not appear when the tape is viewed directly on the TV.

    I have selected a short clip, de-interlaced, using Magix Edit Pro, and saved as an MPEG-2 file without any additional editing or filtering:

    http://youtu.be/09N5wLwRhUA

    It appears to me that the TV has a much more robust, forgiving sync circuit resulting in a more stable image than is produced by the capture card.

    To attempt to deal with the capture problems, I am considering the following purchases:
    - A new capture device: either capture direct to DV (ADVC-55 or ADVC-300) or a device like the Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle that will give me more control over capture formats including the possibility of real raw capture.
    - A TBC with a video bandwith of at least 6.5 MHz such as the TV-One 1T-TBC.
    - A DVD recorder has been suggested by some as having robust TV-Like sync circuits that may be the best "Fix" for the problem.

    I would appreciate any feedback before I throw too much money at the problem.
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  2. Can you upload a sample of the .ts ?

    Youtube isn't a good example, because single rate deinterlacing throws away 1/2 the temporal information 29.97p, so it will look "jerky" compared to 59.94p when you double rate deinterlace. When you view the original on the HDTV, it will bob deinterlace to 59.94

    By "nervous" , are you referring to the motion smoothness? (ie frame rate)

    Or are you referring to something else? like the VHS jitter ?

    Or are you referring to the "nervous" compression artifacts? (flickering backgrounds) ?



    As for "glitches" , I didn't look through the whole video carefully, was there an example of glitch in that sample video ?



    PS Another topic , but you might consider stabilizing the footage as well as cleaning up the chroma noise
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  3. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    You need a better VCR.
    I see timebase error that need to be corrected with an internal (not external) TBC.
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  4. The frame rate is OK. The nervousness may be a combination of jitter, and compression artifacts. As much as anything else, nervous is a description of my reaction to the video.

    I will recapture a short clip. Are there any guidelines for length/size of uploaded video clips?

    Lord Smurf: If my TV can deal with the output of my VCR, producing a very stable image, why can't I find some other capture device that is also able to sync properly?

    Thanks
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  5. As promised attached is a 17 sec .TS clip as captured.
    Image Attached Files
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  6. Yes, I think it's a combination of things

    There are timebase errors, but I think that is a relatively minor factor in your case - since your primary complaint was "nervousness" on viewing the capture . I think that's a combination of noisy compression artifacts (poor MPEG2 encoding combined with noise in the source), poor single rate deinterlacing (in the youtube example) , and I do think frame rate is an issue there - when combined with the handheld, shaky camera "Bourne Identity" effect doesn't help , although this 2nd sample wasn't as bad

    How are you watching/playing the .ts capture on the HDTV ? What software or hardware?

    Your options are better post processing and/or better hardware including better capture (than MPEG2) with TBC. You will get better results with less compressed capture. How much depends on your wallet and time/effort you want to put in

    I included some comparisons of what you can expect with what you have now, compared with some processing (but no stabilization)

    1) deinterlace.mp4 - just a simple deinterlace (single rate) for comparison.
    2) filtered1.mp4 - bob deinterlaced with some filtering
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  7. I am playing the .TS or .MPG files on a laptop with VGA out to the TV. For player software, I have used Windows Media Player, VLC, and KMPlayer.

    In my innocence I initially assumed that once I had a digital file, that all players would decode, and display it in the same way. OMG, was I wrong!! This may be due to the number of optional settings available esp on VLC, and KMPlayer.

    Do you have any suggestions for the best player(s), and their settings?
    Last edited by peg; 10th Apr 2012 at 22:41.
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  8. Well, by default, KMplayer will only single rate deinterlace mpeg2 , so motion will appear more choppy

    Other players like VLC won't even deinterlace automatically, you need to enable it manually

    WMP will depend on how you have your directshow filters enabled

    When playing interlaced content, you should always use 2x (bobbing) for the option instead of single rate. For example, in VLC you would right click to enable the deinterlacer, then select either yadif 2x or bob
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    Originally Posted by peg View Post
    I am playing the .TS or .MPG files on a laptop with VGA out to the TV. For player software, I have used Windows Media Player, VLC, and KMPlayer.

    In my innocence I initially assumed that once I had a digital file, that all players would decode, and display it in the same way. OMG, was I wrong!! This may be due to the number of optional settings available esp on VLC, and KMPlayer.

    Do you have any suggestions for the best player(s), and their settings?
    VLC has been my favorite (but not for the reasons you'd think. Anyway, VLC won't recognize many commonly used video compressors for AVI). The newest Win Media Player is an improvement (but still not great). VLC Player and PowerDVD are "supposedly" the best. Others argue over the free Media Player Classic. Debates get heated and downright nasty. Fact is, there aren't any "quality" media players for Windows or Mac -- at least, none that mere humans can afford. Few people are aware that VLC and Windows Media Player have image controls (contrast, bright, tint, saturation), etc.. The problem is, how do you set them to what you'd call a "neutral" setting that displays video as-is? One thing is for certain: the settings that are OK on my setup or poisondeathray's setup will not be OK on yours.

    Well, there's a trick. Or tricks, really. Nothing simple.Trying to adjust a media player to "neutral" is not the first step. The first step is calibrating your monitor. Easier said than done. Monitor image controls ain't so great, and even when you know what you're doing it's a rough trip. Start by finding a black-and-white movie. Best source: load a video into VirtualDub and use the built-in "grayscale" filter to turn the color flick into genuine monochrome. View this in low light - very low light, but not total darkness (which can be optically deceptive) -- and don't stare at it for a long stretch. Look at some other object for a while, then come back to your computer or laptop. Eventually you'll see a color-cast. At least that tells you what you're dealing with. You can try that trick using a monochrome movie and adjusting your media player's image controls to get perfectly uncolored blacks, grays, and whites -- or as nearly as possible.

    Yeah, why use black, grays, and whites? It's because those hues each consist of equal amounts of red, green, and blue. Black is (nominally) RGB 0-0-0, middle gray is RGB 128-128-128, pure bright white is RGB 255-255-255. So if you're looking at, say, some grayish looking shadows in the RGB range of 64-64-64, but what you're getting is RGB 74-64-64, then you're not getting a clean gray. Instead, you're looking at darkish gray that have a reddish color tint. The reason why pro photogs use grayscale cards for on-scene work is because you need "pure' colors to spot any color casts in your lighting conditions (or to measure the color temperature of the lights). SO if the RGB and saturation levels of your colors are where they are supposed to be, then black will look black (not dark blue, but black), gray will look gray (not gray-green, but gray), and white will look white (not cyan, which is a mix of blue and green). So if those 3 shades look OK, it means the basic colors are "in place" and "in proportion", and therefore the other 31 million colors will look the way they're supposed to.

    Most PC monitors have some sort of Red-Green-Blue control panel. Trouble is, those controls aren't linear -- they usually work OK in the center of the spectrum (midtones), but darks and brights don't respond properly, if at all. Most monitors are designed to look good in showrooms, not in living rooms (that's true for TV as well). Some people have PC graphics cards with Overlay features, but the overlays work only in applications designed to use them (VLC for one, VirtualDub for another). Alas, the overlay feature overrides your default monitor icc profile. So all other apps look weird (or worse), and the overlays tend to affect your captures. You end up turning these things on and off for everything you do. And anyway, overlay adjustment dialogs are impossible to set correctly, with no guides or optical reference points to tell you where you're going. Bummer.

    But you can use these free tricks with your media players. They'll suffice. I used them for years. The better (best) way ? ? ? ? ? Get the gear you need to calibrate your monitor (and laptop) properly. The kits work by building a lookup table (lut) that talks to your graphics adapter. They're also an invaluable aid in setting those persnickety Red-Green-blue monitor controls -- to a point, anyway, but better than driving you to drink trying to do it on your own. You can also use this gear with some other free software to calibrate your TV.

    Yes, yes, I know: all this stuff is digital, right? Digital stuff is always correct, right? Wrong. I don't want to bust anyone's bubbles, but...your PC and TV displays do have digital circuits that manage things. But the cold hard fact is, those displays are analog devices. Yes, They emit light waves. Waves vibrating through the air, get it? Analog. Backlights = analog. Light emitting diodes = analog. If I threw a stream of 7 million digits straight at your eyebals, you'd see nothing. Eyeballs = analog devices. Your eyes will say to your brain, me no savvy digits, kemo sabe. Your ears are analog, too.

    The lagom website has free test patches and articles that explain this stuff: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/ . Expect to spend half a day there. Even then, manual stuff gets to be like hard physical labor (and it's useless for your TV). Don't despair: there's a way around it, but it does involve cost (what doesn't?). Not a lot, but if you have it and want to flout it you can spend up to a cool 5 grand American Green if you like. But let's be reasonable. An EyeOne Display 2 comes in two flavors, expert mode at one fairly decent price, and the DL purely auto mode for 2/3 that much. Everyone who has gone clinically mad trying to eyeball their monitors and TV into submission, and failed miserably, has eventually taken two routes:

    For PC monitors and laptops: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/eye_one_display2.htm
    For TV / Projection: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457
    Last edited by sanlyn; 21st Mar 2014 at 20:53.
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  10. sanlyn: Thanks for the calibration tutorial / recommendation. I agree, it's a great idea, and essential if you want accurate colour.

    Problem is, I am nowhere close to having video that justifies or could benefit from calibrated monitors etc.

    I recaptured some video using Vdub with Lagarith codec. When I step through the video one frame at a time, I notice that there is a jiggle going on. A portion of the video frame steps right, while another portion of the frame steps left. Can this type of error be corrected with an external TBC?
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    Line-level tbc's would be best for captures from tape, which has unstable playback to begin with. A line tbc handles in-frame line-by-line timing problems. The unstable line output causes wiggles, ripples, bent verticals, motion artifacts, even some chroma problems.

    For years, membrs of this forum have recommended JVC higher-end VCR's because they have built-in TBC's. I think it's about time we stopped recommended those products, which have their own faults and which by this time have been used to death. There is absolutely no parts support for the JVC line (or most other VCRs, either), and those players didn't have the highest recommendations for durability. I managed to have 3 of them die on me in short order, 2 used and 1 new.

    A favorite method for getting into tbc-land is to use a dvd recorder's built-in tbc as a pass-thru device. At this point there must be dozens of forum threads that discuss this and post test captures. The most popular dvd recorders that affer this function are Panasonic and Toshiba DVD recorders made between about 2000 and 2005. There Panasonic ES20 / ES15 and Toshiba R-d2 and R-d3 machines sold used for as little as $20. For some reason the old Panasonic ES-10 is sought after like Sylvester stalking Tweety-Bird, though it's been determined that the ES10 has issues as well. You use these machines as pass-thru devices by simply playing the tape source thru them (not recording with them) into your capture device. Some people expect miracles, which won't happen, but you'd be amazed at the problems a pass-thru tbc can fix.

    The advantage that a pass-thru has over the old tbc-equipped VCR's is that those VCR's were OK in their day, but by later standards their processing was primitive at best. With newer machines you also have better noise reduction and y/c comb filters. Toshiba units seem to have the cleanest output, but Panasonic remains popular, probably because the name is easier to remember (beats me). There are a few brand-0new DVD recorders on the market that offer tbc functions, but they are in no way a match for the older stuff.

    Of course some wise guy always brings up this point: if you have a tbc-equipped DVD recorder on hand, why not record to DVD? Well, you can do that if you want -- in fact some tapes (maybe 1 in 200) are pristine enough to look good that way. But all tape, whatever the type, has multiple problems. The noise and color filters in DVD recorders are OK for what they do, but they're really limited. They won't fix hopping, bad frames, chroma bleed, dropouits, streaks, bubbles, color degradation or staining, etc., etc. They don't fix interlace problems or cater to specific encoding needs, either.

    Another advantage for used recorders: many are sold cheap because their optical drives likely will play a disc but won't record, because of age or other problems. Fine. It's the tbc and aids to audio/video sync timing that you want, not the optical drive. Of course there are plenty of fully functional units around, too.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 21st Mar 2014 at 20:54.
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  12. sanlyn: You suggest a line-level TBC as best for cleanup of my video.

    Are these available as standalone units, or are they always incorporated into other devices?

    I am always skeptical about purchasing used electronic equipment. How am I to establish that it still functions as specified?

    I have been looking at the grass Valley ADVC300 which captures to DV. The literature indicates it has a built in line TBC. Is this a unit you are familiar with? Would it do the job you suggest?

    Any other suggestions for specific hardware to clean up my captures?
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    See my previous post just above your last post concerning pass-thru tbc. I've seen many posts from users of the ADVC300 but I don't have detailed knowledge of it. Other members here would know better, but I know it's a pricey unit and from a well-regarded maker. The tbc in these better units will likely suffice (again, someone else might know better than I on this detail). I'd rather capture to lossless AVI than to DV for processing problem videos, but many people do it that way.

    As for used equipment. I have 5 used Panasonic VCR's going back to 1996, a refurbished RD-XS34 and used Panasonic ES-20 recorder, some other used hardware. That doesn't count number 6 VCR which gave me a problem. I paid $30 for it, not enough of an investment to bother with it. You do have to shop around. The Panasonic and Toshiba units mentioned were known for overall reliability; newer components are actually worse, poorly made, and don't function as well. I have two copies of the RD-XS34, one brand-new retail and one refurbished (and obviously used before I bought it). Since 2004 I've made thousands of recordings with them. Oddly, the retail unit required 2 shipments to regional service center for repair, but the refurb just keeps going. Neither of these are simple machines; they were each $500 new. Today I see this model being sold used for up to $800. Thjey are classics of their type. I'm just lucky I bit the bullet and got them when I did. My earlier retail full-price ES-20 died an early death; the used ES-20 from eBay still works after 6 years. Go figure.

    Used Toshibas and Panasonics for tbc pass-thru are very popular. There are many posts here testing these and other machines for that purpose. But I can understand the reluctance to go used, and you have to kinda "read between the lines" with descriptions on places like eBay. I never bought from "no returns accepted" sellers or those who also sell the likes of dinnerware or travel posters in their eBay stores, and whom I suspect would know little about used electronics.

    Older DVD recorders have some advantages over the circuitry in tbc-equipped capture devices. Those machines have noise reduction and auto gain features that can do much for analog sources. The ADVC300 might be exceptional in that regard, especially at the price. But you'll find posts that recommend older Toshiba DVD recorders as having very clean output and good y/c comb filters that clean up a lot of junk -- the popularity of Pansonics nothwithstanding (I still don't get it with that brand, I've some misgivings about their recorders, but that's too long a story to go into now).

    If you'd like an example of what pass-thru can accomplish, I posted a few a while back. I purposely chose an old beat-up VHS tape that has been thru the wringer several times over, so don't expect that much from the examples in terms of final product -- these captures had no further processing other than tbc and no-tbc as examples. They also compare captures made with composite and s-video cables. The ones to notice here are caps made with s-video and tbc or no-tbc. The composite cable captures wouldn't be of interest and are obviously inferior anyway, as expected.

    The panasonic and toshiba comparisons are here:
    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/331681-s-video-artifacts?p=2141384&viewfull=1#post2141384
    and here:
    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/331681-s-video-artifacts?p=2141386&viewfull=1#post2141386

    There is a longer thread that gets pretty technical with test charts and other instrument readings (always fascinating to those who know how to read the specs, but you do get some good info that way):
    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-wh...=1#post1978462.

    Test charts are Good Things and shouldn't be discounted. But for me the ultimate test is real-live moving video. I think you should be able to see the difference between the way a Panasonic processes analog input and the smoother flow you get from Toshiba. The thread that includes my Panasonic/Toshiba captures has some webcam tests farther along in the thread that's also a good indicator.

    The choice is yours, of course. I'd be interested in seeing what others members or users of the ADVC300 have to say, as I've seldom seen a detailed evaluation of the product. Canopus is usually nothing to scoff at, though.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 21st Mar 2014 at 20:54.
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  14. Thanks sanlyn:

    Looks like I may be "gone" for a few days while I try to digest all the info you have provided.
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  15. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
    I think it's about time we stopped recommended those products, which have their own faults and which by this time have been used to death. There is absolutely no parts support for the JVC line (or most other VCRs, either), and those players didn't have the highest recommendations for durability.
    That's just not really accurate.
    - Plenty of good units still to be had.
    - Parts are still available. Good repair shops can often figure things out, too.
    - Durability is fine for all but the end-of-life models (but even those are not horrible).
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    lordsmurf, the last repair shop I called about a VCR repair gave me this quick reply: "Buy a new one. We don't work on VCR's." That was basically the 4th similar response in a row -- and when I spotted that shop riding down the street before calling them, they have a "VCR Repair!" sign in the front window the size of a fridge. Looks faded and must have been there since 1985. Neither JVC nor any website carried an end-of-tape sensor diode ($2.79) for my JVC 7600, and that was in 2007. My brand-new 9911 bought a few years earlier went dead inside the warranty period; JVC said they would replace it with a $185 cheapie, as they had no more 9911's around. I don't say you can't find a JVC in decent shape, but in two states I don't know anyone who will repair a VCR aside from running head cleaner thru one -- and you'll make 6 phone calls out of the Yellow Pages before you find even that. To insist on recommending them so strongly to newbies who don't know what they're looking for anyway, I'd have to accompany that with a caveat: good luck finding one that still works.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 21st Mar 2014 at 20:54.
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  17. sanlyn:
    You are probably right about the difficulty finding a VCR repair shop, but here is my most recent experience with that.
    About 4 years ago, I wanted some repairs / adjustments to my JVC HR-S6600U S-VHS VCR. Found a shop on the tenth call or so. After I went back in to pick up the unit, the tech commented "Thanks for bringing that in, It was a pleasure working on something other than the junk they make today." Moral of the story: make sure they know what you have that you want repaired.
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  18. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
    lordsmurf, the last repair shop I called about a VCR repair gave me this quick reply: "Buy a new one. We don't work on VCR's." That was basically the 4th similar response in a row -- and when I spotted that shop riding down the street before calling them, they have a "VCR Repair!" sign in the front window the size of a fridge. Looks faded and must have been there since 1985. Neither JVC nor any website carried an end-of-tape sensor diode ($2.79) for my JVC 7600, and that was in 2007. My brand-new 9911 bought a few years earlier went dead inside the warranty period; JVC said they would replace it with a $185 cheapie, as they had no more 9911's around. I don't say you can't find a JVC in decent shape, but in two states I don't know anyone who will repair a VCR aside from running head cleaner thru one -- and you'll make 6 phone calls out of the Yellow Pages before you find even that. To insist on recommending them so strongly to newbies who don't know what they're looking for anyway, I'd have to accompany that with a caveat: good luck finding one that still works.
    That honestly is a reflection of what appears to be dumbass services in your area, as opposed to a reflection of JVC VCRs or even VCR in general. I generally suggest people send VCRs via mail to know and trusted shops. I know a couple.
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    So, other than New York, L.A., or Chicago (I live in one of those, and spend plenty of time in the other two), what's a "good" service area? SpeckInTheDesert, New Mexico? Does this mean that if I want to keep up an a/v hobby I'd just better moved to Texas? Florida? Would the cultural mecca of Hattiesburg, Mississippi have better services? No reflection on lordsmurf, who knows his stuff and who has done good work of which I'm personally aware, but...maybe services aren't anything llike what they used to be. For a country that claims to be a "service economy", we must be offering pretty crappy service if we have to send PC's and DVD players to Mexico for repair and recycling.

    Having lived thru 3 JVC's with exceptionally brief life spans, I'm not one who heartily recommends them. I don't recommend VCR's at all, except in general terms and advising not to buy from anyone who can hide from you or has a no-return policy. I still buy 'em on eBay myself, at my risk. My success average so far is 6 out of 10 (both of the JVC's were fast losers, plus 1 Panasonic and 1 SONY, for those who keep track. 5 Pannies and one ancient 1991 SONY still working).

    So the blanket recommendation for JCV and AG-1980 VCR's...well, let's not count on them so much. Out of 10 million JVC's and 50,000 AG-1980's sold over the years, there are about 20 owners on the planet who swear by them. Most people I've heard of who follow those blind recommendations don't swear by them, they swear at them. So if we're going to recommend these old workhorse, let's qualify that recommendation with the proper caveats, and give newbies a fighting chance by mentioning alternatives.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 21st Mar 2014 at 20:54.
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