NTSC CRT-HD television, moving to Europe

[tinpanalley]

I know that by the title of my post, most people are already thinking ditch it, but please hear me out, I need expert advice and I only want ideas for how to do it, not suggestions about what to do with my TV or arguments in favur of flat-screen technology over CRT technology, or the cost of shipping, etc...

I have a Samsung TXT3092WHX CRT HDTV that my wife and I absolutely love. We are moving to France this summer. We would love to be able to take it with us even though it's NTSC. For professional reasons as well related to my work, I would prefer to not lose it. Keep in mind... we don't really watch TV. All we really watch is downloaded media and discs. So, yes, I am aware that our cable box there won't communicate with the TV inputs.

Questions:
- What will be the effect of running the TV on a transformer or step-down converter to comply with the 220V if I have one that takes significantly more Watts than what the TV outputs?
- How do I deal with the 50Hz?
- Can't I get an HD NTSC/PAL video converter for a cable box to work on my TV?

Thanks to anyone who can shed some light on this. I'm not super well versed in this area so any advice would be most appreciated. Help me save our TV!!

[hech54]

I was under the impression that if a TV had HDMI thst it was basically "universal"....DO NOT quote me on that though.
Also....with many electronic devices nowadays...all you MAY need to do it change the power cord on the TV(just like changing the power cord on a desltop computer).

[edDV]

I know that by the title of my post, most people are already thinking ditch it, but please hear me out, I need expert advice and I only want ideas for how to do it, not ...

I have a Samsung TXT3092WHX CRT HDTV that my wife and I absolutely love. We are moving to France this summer. We would love to be able to take it with us even though it's NTSC. For professional reasons as well related to my work, I would prefer to not lose it. Keep in mind... we don't really watch TV. All we really watch is downloaded media and discs. So, yes, I am aware that our cable box there won't communicate with the TV inputs.

Questions:
- What will be the effect of running the TV on a transformer or step-down converter to comply with the 220V if I have one that takes significantly more Watts than what the TV outputs?
- How do I deal with the 50Hz?
- Can't I get an HD NTSC/PAL video converter for a cable box to work on my TV?

Thanks to anyone who can shed some light on this. I'm not super well versed in this area so any advice would be most appreciated. Help me save our TV!!

If this move is permanent, you should sell the TV. Samsung usually blocks all 50Hz and/or PAL encoded input on models sold in the USA. They do this to prevent a Euro/Asian customer from buying a TV in the USA to avoid the heavy VAT tax. Your TV simply will not accept Euro broadcasts or play "PAL" DVD/Blu-Ray. Euro cable/dbs boxes only output 50 Hz video.

To test this for yourself, obtain a PAL DVD player and PAL test discs* or a PAL test signal generator.

That TV will only be useful as an extended 60Hz computer monitor over there. Check the manual for 230/50Hz voltage support. If not you will need a 230v/110v step down transformer.

The TV brand most likely to support both PAL and NTSC is Vizio but each model needs testing.


* http://www.videoessentials.com/products_main.php


PS: An older Samsung HD CRT TV might support 50Hz over the YPbPr connection. My Philips HD CRT does. The resale value of a mid 2000s CRT is near zero but the shipping weight is high.

[jman98]

If the photo I saw of this model is correct this is the thinnest CRT ever. I didn't know it was even possible to make them like that.

Samsung models are not in any way "universal". What hech54 says in his reply is usually correct, but Samsung is one of the exceptions. Samsung deliberately cripples its TVs for the US and Canadian markets so they don't work at all with PAL signals. This has to do with protecting their Asian and European distributors from people who live there would would buy in the USA/Canada and ship the TV home to save on VAT. So you will absolutely need a converter with this TV. Note that if you end up buying French DVDs that you will need to have a DVD player that can convert PAL video to NTSC output. Look into Philips models.

You will need a step-down converter for sure and preferably one that can handle converting 50 Khz to 60 KHz. I am not an electrician so I cannot comment on what will happen if you run the TV on 50 KHz power at the correct wattage. I don't think it would be a big negative for the TV to run at 50 Khz, but I don't know for sure. Such converters will be expensive and will need to be placed in a place with good ventilation. I cannot personally recommend any models. Others may be able to.

I have some comments about living in France that I will send you in a private message as it's off topic for this conversation.

[tinpanalley]

I'm going to plug my Canon point and shoot into the TV which can output PAL to see what happens. Just to know I tested that.
I also found THIS that claims to take care of converting any HD signal from 50 - 60 or vice versa. I think it's all I need. Thoughts?

[Cornucopia]

That box is interesting and could do the trick for you if it actually does what it claims and has decent scaling quality.

You would DEFINATELY need a power transformer (one that changes both the Voltage/Amperage & the Line Frequency) on both the TV & the box, and every (non-NTSC) input would have to be routed to the TV via the box.

Without those, the TV would be nearly useless.

Scott

[hech54]

My TV has a hand-crank and I own nothing "HD"....I'm going to be completely lost when my old television finally dies.

[tinpanalley]

...and has decent scaling quality.

1. Explain to me exactly what I'm looking for where that's concerned, if you can?
2. I will have ALL my NTSC and multi-zone devices and any future ones I buy, I'll look for multi-zone
3. LOVE the Groucho avatar

You would DEFINITELY need a power transformer (one that changes both the Voltage/Amperage & the Line Frequency

I'm obviously naive about this... so the frequency of PAL and NTSC isn't enough? There's also a frequency in the power line? I was planning on using this one.

[jman98]

I'm obviously naive about this... so the frequency of PAL and NTSC isn't enough? There's also a frequency in the power line? I was planning on using this one.

France uses a different plug type than the UK so you will also have to get a plug converter if you buy this model. It would really be best if you can avoid having to convert the plug too. Plug converters may not be designed for long term use under the kind of current this unit will draw.

[Cornucopia]

The frequency of the video refresh originated because of old school electrical equipment not being able to handle a frequency that was not in unity with the electric power line frequency without producing Intermodulation Distortion (aka Beat Frequencies). This is something that modern electronics is much more impervious to (though not totally).
So, power line frequency in US=60Hz, so video framerate/refresh=60Hz. In Europe, power=50Hz, so video Fps/refresh=50Hz.

The transformer you mentioned has listed in its specs both frequencies, so I'm pretty sure it can hand the change in frequencies (though it is hard to say; maybe it just passes through the same freq.). Regardless, most modern TVs should be able to handle a different power line frequency (though, not all. YMMV).

RE: HDMI Scaler,
You'll have to do some tests to see with your own eyes whether it does a good enough job. Things to look for: Smearing, Blockiness, Tearing, Judder/Jitter, AR distortion.
If you are taking your other devices with you, those will also need transformers as well. And if you have NTSC devices (e.g. DVD player) connected to the TV, you'll need to put only NTSC media in them. As mentioned before, US equipment is notorious for not accomodating PAL media (though the reverse is much more relaxed). If you buy a PAL/Multi player while there and it is hooked up to the TV, how it needs to be hooked up will depend on whether the player is doing a true conversion to NTSC or not. In one scenario, you might STILL need to go through the scaler box, whereas in another, you wouldn't.

Notice that Multi-zone or multi-region does not mean the same thing as Multi-systems. "Region" refers to just an authoring flag on a DVD/BD disc used for market control purposes (1 vs. 2 etc., or A vs. B, etc.). It can sometimes be defeated in player firmware. "Systems" refers to PAL vs. NTSC. This is much less trivial and cannot be achieved without the hardware being expressly built to support those systems.

BTW, Thanks for the Groucho comment! I made that myself (have Chico & Harpo ones as well). They're the best!

Scott

[aedipuss]

you seem to have been busy on other forums with the same question before. http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=33407230

the only way i see to safely run that tv as it needs 60htz power is to invest in an 220v ac 50htz to 24 volt dc converter and also a 24 volt to 120 60htz inverter, hopefully one that uses sine wave conversion not cheap square wave and outputs ~ 1000 watts as you seem to also want to be able to use your other game consoles, etc.

but you were already told that before...

[tinpanalley]

you seem to have been busy on other forums with the same question before. http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=33407230

Is there a rule against expanding your sources of information and opinions to make an educated purchase and to learn by cross-verifying what you're told in various places to come to the best conclusion? If there is a rule or forum etiquette about that which I've never come across in 15 years of being on forums, then I apologize and I'd like to read the forum policy on it. But if not, I don't see why my having asked in other places is a concern other than you maybe finding it annoying?

Look, all I was thinking was this: keep the TV, keep all my devices. My multi-region DVD player is the only one that doesn't run 110/220 and 50/60. for the DVD player and the TV, get a step-down power supply. Then later on, if I want to watch TV, I'll deal with that conversion. I get to keep buying PAL and NTSC DVDs. I get to keep my vast DVD collection. Doesn't that make more sense than starting all over?

[edDV]

you seem to have been busy on other forums with the same question before. http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=33407230

Is there a rule against expanding your sources of information and opinions to make an educated purchase and to learn by cross-verifying what you're told in various places to come to the best conclusion? If there is a rule or forum etiquette about that which I've never come across in 15 years of being on forums, then I apologize and I'd like to read the forum policy on it. But if not, I don't see why my having asked in other places is a concern other than you maybe finding it annoying?

If your employer is moving you, I'd suggest you negotiate they pick up the tab for sale and repurchase of your electronics. Just about everything from kitchen appliances to power tools won't work there without expensive transformers. Expect to pay huge tax markups over there for new purchases but most Euro TV equipment can be brought back here. They will at least accept 60Hz YUV and HDMI video if not 60Hz power.

[aedipuss]

you seem to have been busy on other forums with the same question before. http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=33407230

Is there a rule against expanding your sources of information and opinions to make an educated purchase and to learn by cross-verifying what you're told in various places to come to the best conclusion? If there is a rule or forum etiquette about that which I've never come across in 15 years of being on forums, then I apologize and I'd like to read the forum policy on it. But if not, I don't see why my having asked in other places is a concern other than you maybe finding it annoying?

Look, all I was thinking was this: keep the TV, keep all my devices. My multi-region DVD player is the only one that doesn't run 110/220 and 50/60. for the DVD player and the TV, get a step-down power supply. Then later on, if I want to watch TV, I'll deal with that conversion. I get to keep buying PAL and NTSC DVDs. I get to keep my vast DVD collection. Doesn't that make more sense than starting all over?

no but like you others often peruse multiple forums and coming across a thread that has been re-started on a different forum without telling the new folks about the other thread seems disingenuous. there is no real harm though.

no transformer will convert 50hz power to 60hz, they ONLY step down the voltage. the ac->dc->ac or a generator(either ac powered or gas powered) can produce a different frequency.

if you are staying overseas awhile then and have a single family home lined up i might even suggest buying a gasoline 110v power backup generator here and shipping it over. i've lived over the pond and some u.s. stuff works fine on 220v transformers, some won't work at all, and some will burn up in a flash and smoke show. i never figured out how to tell what was safe to bring over, but that was 25 years ago. i ended up buying most stuff there even if i had brought a u.s. version and re-selling them before coming home. if you can get onto u.s. military bases and shop there, prices are good and they often have dual voltage stuff.

[tinpanalley]

aedipuss, I'm sorry, I don't agree that it's disingenuous as I don't see what difference it makes to you whether you know I'm asking for other opinions or not. But in any event, I apologize for the snappy reply and clearly you're quite knowledgable on the subject, so I'll ask you for your opinion...
- I have the 120-60 TV and a 120-60 Multi-region DVD player
- my gaming consoles can be all taken care of with appropriate PSUs (I've checked)
- my amp is 110/220, 50/60. So is my old turntable. My phonograph is the most multi-region device on the planet .
- I have lots of DVDs I simply can't part with. Many are irreplaceable.
I really don't mind buying step-down transformers. I'll be buying 2 others anyway.
What do you suggest I do?

[aedipuss]

n.p. it's not a big deal. was just surprised to find the other thread not mentioned.

for the tv to operate properly it most likely will need the ac-dc-ac route. get stuff that seems way overkill in the way of watts/amps. crt tvs create a huge load at startup when that electromagnet turns on. as for the transformers for the rest always get at least twice the rated watts/amps of the items being plugged into it an don't buy cheap junk. plan on even the good ones dying anyway, and always have spares.

the exchange rate afaik isn't very favorable for americans these days. make sure to get way more compensation than you think would be nice. food and housing are a killer.

[pandy]

- What will be the effect of running the TV on a transformer or step-down converter to comply with the 220V if I have one that takes significantly more Watts than what the TV outputs?
- How do I deal with the 50Hz?
- Can't I get an HD NTSC/PAL video converter for a cable box to work on my TV?

- no effect - using transformer and converting 230 >> 120 is quite popular in Europe (at least on some countries)
- 50Hz from power network should be not a problem - modern TV use anyway SMPS's, it imply that before converting energy they use rectifier to convert AC to DC thus 50/60Hz is only important where equipment is equipped with classic low freq transformer (and usually even then they tolerate 50Hz quite well on 60Hz equipment) - You may think about buying one large power transformers from APC (not only APC probably, perhaps they offer UPS with real sine output and intelligent power input ie 120/230 50/60)

- 50Hz dealing with content it is a bit different story

for last question - it will be very expensive, difficult and with poor results - most of sources in Europe (those produced in USA in Asia usually deals very well with 60Hz i.e. they usually are able to output NTSC or 60Hz video)


I have different advise - search for European version of same Samsung TV, in Europe 2 CRT TV was offered with HDMI input, Philips (i like this this TV but it have very poor pixel plus technology and lot of motion artifacts - poor frame rate conversion), second is Samsung and i believe Your TV have similar EU model.

Btw i fully understand CRT addiction...

[jman98]

tinpanalley - There's no problem that you asked on other sites, but we do get a lot of newbies who come here pretending to want help but in fact they ignore everything that they are told that doesn't match some preconceived notion they have. They are really just looking for validation for what they already think and are not serious about getting help. Your decision to ask on multiple forums COULD be taken as a sign of that, but based on your responses I feel confident that's not the case.

I want to choose my words carefully for a public forum as I do not wish to offend, but on a former job I worked in the US office of a French company and I am quite familiar with the country and its people. I will just say that Americans often go through severe culture shock in France for a lot of reasons and while I wish tinpanalley the best, it would not surprise me at all if his stay in France ends up being a lot shorter than he plans for right now. I've seen it happen. Given that, it really might make good sense to go this route of making his US appliances work there, especially if this is not going to be a long stay even if he and his wife love it there.

[jimdagys]

I will just say that Americans often go through severe culture shock in France for a lot of reasons

Would you please elaborate. I and probably others are curious.

[pandy]

no transformer will convert 50hz power to 60hz, they ONLY step down the voltage. the ac->dc->ac or a generator(either ac powered or gas powered) can produce a different frequency.

Yes and No - it depends from way how transformer is feed.

With electronic transformer or ordinary transformer feed by inverter also frequency can be different, however in most cases this is not a problem and this TV will work (except DeGaus coil!!!!!!!!!) even from DC source.

[zoobie]

Would you please elaborate. I and probably others are curious.

It would take volumes to explain. Best way is to jump right into another culture. It's shocking!

[pandy]

Perhaps due of this that in France they use US to scare children - generally in EUrope, US act as a example of very scary country...

[tinpanalley]

tinpanalley - There's no problem that you asked on other sites, but we do get a lot of newbies who come here pretending to want help but in fact they ignore everything that they are told that doesn't match some preconceived notion they have.

You know what I'm fed up up to the ears about is people who proclaim themselves to be long time experts in forums making assumptions about people who ask questions which are irrelevant questions anyway because it is absolutely none of your concern, unless you're the moderator, why I'm asking a question, what it's about, or whether I've been asking in other places. There is no rule that says I can't explore options in various places and any respectful person wouldn't assume I'm some noob out of some personal desire to be enforcing fake laws on boards.

I want to choose my words carefully for a public forum as I do not wish to offend

You couldn't care LESS about choosing your words correctly. After spewing your completely angry rhetoric about the French to me in a Private Message and I did the mature thing by not replying to you because it had nothing to do with anything, you then persist to bring it up AGAIN in the thread?! In a thread about PAL and NTSC?! This post is about nothing more than you needing to get off your chest whatever it was about dealing with the French that left you feeling attacked, left out, or angry about your experiences which I would understand if this were a travel or expat forum but it couldn't be further from the issue at hand. So, what am I supposed to say? "Ohhhh, ok... well since you've had problems and culture shock with the French then I'll get rid of my Samsung. Or better yet not go." Choosing your words correctly means thinking before insulting a whole lot of friends AND family members I have there that simply don't know anything about tech which is why I have to come here to ask about NTSC. And you know what, it's closed-minded opinions like yours that are the precise reason why several people there get a wrong and negative perception of Americans. It's that posturing of yourself being in the right and people like my friends and family there being clearly the ones who are difficult that gets people like you into trouble.

And your attempt to connect the issues by saying that I should keep my gear due to the high probability that I'll come back?? How dare you? Creating ANY correlation between thoughts doesn't make it a proper correlation.

I give up. Forums these days are just loaded with community watchdogs enforcing their own views of who an idiot is and in that world of ridiculous questions about how to search for a simple thing, I'M the one whose motives are questioned even though I have a legitimate question. I'm sorry to have wasted people's time. Thank you dearly to those who helped. I'll take all your thoughts into consideration. Mod, please close this thread now, it doesn't need to be open anymore.

And jman, keep your thoughts, PMs, replies to yourself. I'm not interested in anything you think might be an explanation. And since it has nothing to do with tech, there's no point in explaining yourself.

Thanks everyone.[/QUOTE]