h264 levels

[darknesslord]

i had a question about h264 format, i read wikipedia article about that by my question is not answered.
1- in the table of levels the maximum number of "Luma samples/s" belong to level 5.2 which is 530,841,600
for resolution of 3840x4320(SBS 3D, up and down) it only supports 32 fames. how come i have a video with that resolution in High@5.1 in 60 fps?
2- LG claim to be able to play 4k videos and 60 fps content. even if it can play 4K@30fps it should support 5.1 level (3840*2160*30=248832000). so why it didnt play my samples in LG center? i have 2 sample none of which were played:

Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media
Codec ID : isom
File size : 491 MiB
Duration : 10mn 34s
Overall bit rate : 6 491 Kbps
Movie name : Big Buck Bunny, Sunflower version
Performer : Blender Foundation 2008, Janus Bager Kristensen 2013
Composer : Sacha Goedegebure
Genre : Animation
Encoded date : UTC 2013-12-16 18:03:30
Tagged date : UTC 2013-12-16 18:03:30
Comment : Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 - http://bbb3d.renderfarming.net
©com : Jan Morgenstern

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L5.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 8 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 10mn 34s
Bit rate : 6 000 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 29.1 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 0.889
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 60.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.024
Stream size : 454 MiB (93%)
Writing library : x264 core 115
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=8 / deblock=1:1:1 / analyse=0x3:0x133 / me=tesa / subme=10 / psy=1 / psy_rd=0.40:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=24 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=2 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=0 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=12 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=16 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=2 / b_bias=0 / direct=3 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=60 / rc=2pass / mbtree=1 / bitrate=6000 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:0.60
Encoded date : UTC 2013-12-16 18:03:30
Tagged date : UTC 2013-12-16 18:03:37

Audio #1
ID : 2
Format : MPEG Audio
Format version : Version 1
Format profile : Layer 3
Mode : Joint stereo
Mode extension : MS Stereo
Codec ID : 6B
Duration : 10mn 34s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 160 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 165 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 12.1 MiB (2%)
Writing library : LAME3.99r
Encoding settings : -m j -V 4 -q 3 -lowpass 17.5 -b 160
Encoded date : UTC 2013-12-16 18:03:37
Tagged date : UTC 2013-12-16 18:03:37

Audio #2
ID : 3
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Format settings, Endianness : Big
Codec ID : ac-3
Duration : 10mn 34s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 320 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 24.2 MiB (5%)
Encoded date : UTC 2013-12-16 18:03:37
Tagged date : UTC 2013-12-16 18:03:37

Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media
Codec ID : isom
File size : 945 MiB
Duration : 10mn 34s
Overall bit rate : 12.5 Mbps
Movie name : Big Buck Bunny, Sunflower version
Performer : Blender Foundation 2008, Janus Bager Kristensen 2013
Composer : Sacha Goedegebure
Genre : Animation
Encoded date : UTC 2013-12-20 20:17:03
Tagged date : UTC 2013-12-20 20:17:03
Comment : Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 - http://bbb3d.renderfarming.net
©com : Jan Morgenstern

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L5.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 10mn 34s
Bit rate : 12.0 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 66.0 Mbps
Width : 3 840 pixels
Height : 4 320 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 0.889
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 60.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.012
Stream size : 908 MiB (96%)
Writing library : x264 core 120
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=4 / deblock=1:1:1 / analyse=0x3:0x133 / me=tesa / subme=11 / psy=1 / psy_rd=0.40:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=24 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=2 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=0 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=12 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=16 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=2 / b_bias=0 / direct=3 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=60 / rc=2pass / mbtree=1 / bitrate=12000 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:0.60
Encoded date : UTC 2013-12-20 20:17:03
Tagged date : UTC 2013-12-20 20:17:07

Audio #1
ID : 2
Format : MPEG Audio
Format version : Version 1
Format profile : Layer 3
Mode : Joint stereo
Mode extension : MS Stereo
Codec ID : 6B
Duration : 10mn 34s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 160 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 165 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 12.1 MiB (1%)
Writing library : LAME3.99r
Encoding settings : -m j -V 4 -q 3 -lowpass 17.5 -b 160
Encoded date : UTC 2013-12-20 20:17:06
Tagged date : UTC 2013-12-20 20:17:07

Audio #2
ID : 3
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Format settings, Endianness : Big
Codec ID : ac-3
Duration : 10mn 34s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 320 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 24.2 MiB (3%)
Encoded date : UTC 2013-12-20 20:17:06
Tagged date : UTC 2013-12-20 20:17:07

[Cornucopia]

My guess it is a combination of:
1. LG is fudging or being rigid/stupid on certain parameters of Level compliancy
2. Wikipedia is mis-quoting slightly
3. MediaInfo isn't giving all the necessary info to determine this
4. Those files cheated in their x264 encoding/muxing
5. You are missing something else about compliancy requirements

Scott

[hello_hello]

Maybe the maximum frame rate changes according to the number of reference frames used. I'm not really sure, but the second encode has ref=4 while for the first it's ref=8. Did you do that or did the encoder decide? Did you specify Level 5.1?

What LG player are you using? Not that I know much about LG but a little info might help. If you're referring to an external player and HDMI..... I picked a random 4K LG TV and looked at the manual. It indicated you should use the "HDMI In 3" port for 4k stuff. It's the only high resolution, high frame rate friendly HDMI port.

Edit: It appears the x264 encoder doesn't force you to stick to the appropriate frame rates or resolutions for a given level. I tried a quick 640x480 encode while specifying Level 1.0 and the following was added to MeGUI's log file:

[Information] [19/12/14 8:45:39 PM] changing --ref to 0
[Warning] [19/12/14 8:46:04 PM] x264 [warning]: frame MB size (40x30) > level limit (99)
[Warning] [19/12/14 8:46:04 PM] x264 [warning]: DPB size (4 frames, 4800 mbs) > level limit (0 frames, 396 mbs)
[Warning] [19/12/14 8:46:04 PM] x264 [warning]: MB rate (30000) > level limit (1485)
[Information] [19/12/14 8:46:04 PM] x264 [info]: profile High, level 1.0

Lots of warnings, but it still encoded (and set Level 1 according to MediaInfo). Then again, this is what MediaInfo displays for ref frames:

Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames

Writing library : x264 core 142 r2491 24e4fed
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=1 / deblock=1:-1:-1 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=umh / subme=8 /

[jagabo]

Anyone can flag a video file as any Profile and Level that they want. See H264 Level Editor, for example. That's all that MediaInfo reports. It may or may not accurately reflect the properties of the video.

[darknesslord]

My guess it is a combination of:
1. LG is fudging or being rigid/stupid on certain parameters of Level compliancy
2. Wikipedia is mis-quoting slightly
3. MediaInfo isn't giving all the necessary info to determine this
4. Those files cheated in their x264 encoding/muxing
5. You are missing something else about compliancy requirements

Scott

thanks dear scott, you mentioned pretty much every possible scenarios, i was hoping to get a solution to overcome this problem

[darknesslord]

thanks for answering dear hello_hello

Maybe the maximum frame rate changes according to the number of reference frames used. I'm not really sure, but the second encode has ref=4 while for the first it's ref=8. Did you do that or did the encoder decide? Did you specify Level 5.1?

i did not do anything, i have just downloaded from the makers website

What LG player are you using? Not that I know much about LG but a little info might help. If you're referring to an external player and HDMI..... I picked a random 4K LG TV and looked at the manual. It indicated you should use the "HDMI In 3" port for 4k stuff. It's the only high resolution, high frame rate friendly HDMI port.

actually i am buyning a LG UB85000GI, sorry if the website is in farsi, i couldn't find it in other regions

[darknesslord]

thanks for answering

Anyone can flag a video file as any Profile and Level that they want. See H264 Level Editor, for example. That's all that MediaInfo reports. It may or may not accurately reflect the properties of the video.

what about my first question? according to wikipedia table 3840x4320@60p should not exit !!! it is beyond even highest level of h264(5.2)

[jagabo]

what about my first question? according to wikipedia table 3840x4320@60p should not exit !!! it is beyond even highest level of h264(5.2)

Just because it's beyond the spec doesn't mean it can't exist. h.264 compressed video is just a series of compressed frames. You can put whatever you want for the frame rate at the container level (depending on the container). You could specify a thousand framers per second if you wanted.

[darknesslord]

what about my first question? according to wikipedia table 3840x4320@60p should not exit !!! it is beyond even highest level of h264(5.2)

Just because it's beyond the spec doesn't mean it can't exist. h.264 compressed video is just a series of compressed frames. You can put whatever you want for the frame rate at the container level (depending on the container). You could specify a thousand framers per second if you wanted.

that is right, but what ever frame rate you choose the player should have the capability to play it

my problem is that if LG claims that its UB85000GI TV can play 4k@60p it should support level 5.2, i have asked from them, they say that the TV can play 4k@60p from a usb memory

[hello_hello]

I thought the days of there being an acceptable number of dead pixels was a thing of the past. LG don't seem to think so. From the manual:

Dot Defect
The panel is a high technology product with resolution of two million to six million pixels. In a very few cases, you could see fine dots on the screen while you’re viewing the TV. Those dots are deactivated pixels and do not affect the performance and reliability of the TV.

I like that. The performance of the TV is un-effected by the number of working pixels.

Are you sure the TV's supposed to play 4k AVC video at 60fps. It appears to have a built-in HEVC decoder. This is all the info I could find. Different model number, but probably still applicable:

http://www.lg.com/us/tvs/lg-55UB9500-led-tv
HEVC Decoder
The recently developed HEVC (short for High Efficiency Video Coding) compression format is essential to ULTRA HD/4K, enabling next-generation video playback to meet the demands of UHD TVs. 4K video uses HEVC, and so the built-in HEVC decoder on this LG ULTRA HD television makes it ready to display 4K content.

It's possible the media player supports higher resolutions for HEVC than it does for AVC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Video_Coding#Tiers_and_levels

Unfortunately the manual I downloaded tells you absolutely nothing in respect to the formats it'll play. There's a page dedicated to explaining how to plug a USB device into one of the USB ports, but you're on your own from there. Even today some players are more enthusiastic about the AVC resolutions they support than they are when it comes to MPEG4 ASP, so chances are there's a similar thing happening with players supporting HEVC.

[darknesslord]

Are you sure the TV's supposed to play 4k AVC video at 60fps. It appears to have a built-in HEVC decoder. This is all the info I could find. Different model number, but probably still applicable:

i don't know about AVC but it is supposed to play 4K@60p

HEVC Decoder
The recently developed HEVC (short for High Efficiency Video Coding) compression format is essential to ULTRA HD/4K, enabling next-generation video playback to meet the demands of UHD TVs. 4K video uses HEVC, and so the built-in HEVC decoder on this LG ULTRA HD television makes it ready to display 4K content.

It's possible the media player supports higher resolutions for HEVC than it does for AVC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Video_Coding#Tiers_and_levels

you can be right, but i downloaded a 4K HEVC but it was just video stream (in .h265 extension, no audio). and the TV didn't play that too
shoould i mux that video with an audio? if yes, what is the best audio format, container and muxer for that job

[hello_hello]

You'd probably need to mux it into a container. I think MKVMergeGUI supports h265 these days. I shouldn't imagine it'd need to also include audio.

It's very early days for 4k and h265 so you're in what for most of us would be uncharted territory.

[darknesslord]

i have reencoded + chagned level of a 3D 1920x800 movies into different levels from 3.2 to 5.1 and i see which of are playable in UB85000GI and i will present results here
thanks to every one for answering