Nero Video Rendering Problem

[criggs]

I have this HD 1280 x 720 .flv file, with an H.264 video stream that runs 1912k per second or 1.912 megs a second.

I have to edit it and shorten it and add titles, so I have to put it through a video editor and down a generation, can't be helped. I have to create an mp4 file, and my editor is Nero Video. I am utilizing the AVC Format and AVC Profile to render. I want the highest quality I can get, so I set it to Video Quality 6635 kbit/s. (By the way, I have Nero 12. I also "upgraded" to Nero 15, and in Nero 15 the highest bit rate I can get in this setting is a little over 4000 kbit/s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What's up with that????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

When I look at my finished render, it is FILLED with blocky artifacts. It's not my computer or graphics card, I don't think. If I try to render a snippet from that very same flv video with XMedia Recode or Handbrake, using roughly the same settings, the render looks perfectly fine.

What is wrong with my Nero? Why do my Nero renders look like crap??

Thanks very much for any help you can provide!

[LMotlow]

I want the highest quality I can get, so I set it to Video Quality 6635 kbit/s.

That's a rather low bitrate for HD. Depends on the video, too.

What is wrong with my Nero? Why do my Nero renders look like crap??

Hate to tell you this, but likely it's because Nero is crap. Why not stay with the apps you named that work for you?

[criggs]

That's a rather low bitrate for HD. Depends on the video, too.

I'm painfully aware of that, yes. Ideally I would like to run the render at 10000. But for some stupid reason the highest rate available in Nero 12 is 6635. Preposterously and absurdly, the "upgrade" from Nero 12 to Nero 15 caps it even lower, at around 4000. WHAT IS UP WITH THE UPGRADE BEING WORSE THAN 12???!!!

That said, it also needs to be stated clearly that, even given that low bitrate, I'm STILL getting not unacceptable results from Handbrake and XMedia Recode at that same bitrate. So something more is afoot here with my crappy Nero renders than just a low bitrate. Nero seems to be uniquely capable here of notably horrible renders, for some reason.

Why not stay with the apps you named that work for you?

Because they're just rendering and conversion tools, not editing tools. They can't do what I need, in terms of shortening, effect transitions, title inserts, etc. etc. That's why I'm forced to use an editing program like Nero.

I find it extraordinarily, unbelievably, hard to believe that the renders I'm getting from my Nero are the best it can do. If that were truly the case, people would refuse to use Nero. But they don't; it's one of the most widely used editing programs out there. Which leads me inexorably to the conclusion that something is not right here, something which almost certainly can be corrected, given the application of some experience and wisdom on the part of the participants in this forum. I find it super hard to believe that there is not someone in this forum who has not only also had the painful experience I'm having with my Nero renders, but who has come out the other side of that experience with the necessary knowledge and expertise to FIX THIS!!!

Surely there is someone, anyone, out there who can help me? Please?? Anyone???

[poisondeathray]

Did you try asking Nero for support ?

You can use the older nero version or use another application.

A good free editor is aviutl. It has support for x264 (same encoder used by handbrake), so the encodes will be much better

[LMotlow]

Why not stay with the apps you named that work for you?

Because they're just rendering and conversion tools, not editing tools. They can't do what I need, in terms of shortening, effect transitions, title inserts, etc. etc. That's why I'm forced to use an editing program like Nero.

I disagree. You aren't forced to use anything, much less Nero.

I find it extraordinarily, unbelievably, hard to believe that the renders I'm getting from my Nero are the best it can do. If that were truly the case, people would refuse to use Nero.

I don't. No one I know uses or recommends it.

it's one of the most widely used editing programs out there.

Nope. Settle down. Don't panic. I don't know where you get that information. Most serious video buffs use something like Vegas Movie Studio or Premiere Elements. If they're really serious they go for Vegas Pro or Premiere Pro. Even TMPGEnc Mastering Works can do some of that. Try the trial version of Premiere Elements or Movie Studio. Or go big time with a pro trial. Pro or not, they all require a learning curve.

Anyway, since we have no sample of your original vids, we can't advise in detail. Your profile has no computer details, either, so we can only hazard general suggestions. But plenty of apps would be better than what you're using.

[criggs]

I disagree. You aren't forced to use anything, much less Nero.

I regret your insulting and condescending tone. Let me be clear: I am not forced to use Nero; I am forced to use an editor. There, is that better, Mr. Hoity-Toity?

Most serious video buffs use something like Vegas Movie Studio or Premiere Elements. If they're really serious they go for Vegas Pro or Premiere Pro. Even TMPGEnc Mastering Works can do some of that. Try the trial version of Premiere Elements or Movie Studio.

Ahhhh! Now we're getting somewhere! Thank you for the concrete suggestions; appreciated! In the absence of any specific knowledge on my part regarding Movie Studio or Premiere Elements, I'm leaning toward Premiere Elements, simply because, at $80, it's cheaper than Vegas Movie Studio.

Or go big time with a pro trial.

Unfortunately that's not an option for me. I simply don't have the $$$s.

Anyway, since we have no sample of your original vids, we can't advise in detail.

I'll be happy to supply samples, meaning a snippet from the original file, the same snippet in the Nero render, and the same snippet from a Handbrake and XMedia Recode render. I'm a newbie here, and will have to learn the procedures to embed that in a forum reply like this.

Your profile has no computer details, either, so we can only hazard general suggestions.

It's a Windows 8 Toshiba laptop. Are there specific additional specs I can provide regarding the computer which would be helpful?

But plenty of apps would be better than what you're using.

Despite your sneering tone, I am actually encouraged by what you write, since it appears to increase the odds that I'm not dealing here with a computer problem but merely an inadequacy on the part of Nero, an inadequacy for which compensation may be found, according to you, by switching to a different editing tool. Accordingly, that will be my next step.

Which brings up another question: I spent the last two weeks building this editing project in Nero, only to discover that I cannot get a clean render. Nero's editing projects are .nvc files. Can either Vegas Movie Studio or Premiere Elements import Nero .nvc files? Or do I need to do the whole edit project over from scratch?

[poisondeathray]

Which brings up another question: I spent the last two weeks building this editing project in Nero, only to discover that I cannot get a clean render. Nero's editing projects are .nvc files. Can either Vegas Movie Studio or Premiere Elements import Nero .nvc files? Or do I need to do the whole edit project over from scratch?

No other software can open Nero project files

If you don't want to spend on one of the lower priced editing tools, have a look at some of the free options. It doesn't sound like you're doing very complex editing tasks from your description . Unless etc. etc.. includes a bunch of other stuff

shortening, effect transitions, title inserts, etc. etc.

[poisondeathray]

I'm looking at some of the Nero screenshots, and it looks like 65Mb/s is supported. Or is that only for UHD/4K resolutions ? (Is bitrate "locked" to certain resolutions ?)

Did you try entering a number manually instead of using the slider ?



Or a possible workaround might be to render out a lossless or high bitrate AVI, then use some x264 front end to encode it properly - Can Nero access system installed AVI VFW codecs ? Because x264vfw should be able to be accessed directly if you can

[newpball]

Simple solution:

1. Dump Nero
2. Use either a freeware editor (AviUtl?), a trial version or cut on the vices and fork out some dollars.

[LMotlow]

Yep, poisondeathray has a point with opening those projects. But the O.P. doesn't like them anyway. I would think the first few efforts would have shown that the results for further projects wouldn't be up to snuff, so why follow that road? If they could be saved in another format (like lossless or even DV -- yikes!), another app could open and encode them as desired.

Hope it doesn't sound like "sneering", criggs. You see the results. There's plenty of testimony that agrees with it. If you're picky about results, you need something more sophisticated. Nero is designed strictly for casual users, and most members here are aware of that.

Transitions are always re-encoded, even in smart-rendering apps. Title overlays, too. The fancier you get, the more advanced tools you need. I'd suggest start with a short project with another app and see what you get.

[criggs]

I'm looking at some of the Nero screenshots, and it looks like 65Mb/s is supported. Or is that only for UHD/4K resolutions ? (Is bitrate "locked" to certain resolutions ?)

I'm afraid so, yes. Sure, I can do 30 megs a second bitrate, but only with 4k resolutions.

Did you try entering a number manually instead of using the slider ?

Yes; it rejects it, defaulting back to that piddling "highest" number, 6635 kb/s.

Or a possible workaround might be to render out a lossless or high bitrate AVI, then use some x264 front end to encode it properly - Can Nero access system installed AVI VFW codecs ? Because x264vfw should be able to be accessed directly if you can

Hit a brick wall there too. Yes, Nero can render uncompressed AVI, no problem, -- AT SD RESOLUTIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Which makes it worse than useless, and truly silly. One truly wonders what on Earth Nero was thinking in making the HIGHEST-QUALITY RENDER POSSIBLE available only in frigging SD!!!

[criggs]

I would think the first few efforts would have shown that the results for further projects wouldn't be up to snuff, so why follow that road?

I guess because I reached the absurd conclusion that Nero did what it claimed to do, make decent renders. Silly me.

If they could be saved in another format (like lossless or even DV -- yikes!), another app could open and encode them as desired.

I really wish that were the case. I would be more than happy, even thrilled, if I could make a lossless render from Nero, and then compress with a decent piece of software like XMedia Recode or Handbrake. But, in an absurdity of absurdities, Nero's lossless AVI render is only available in SD resolutions, believe it or not. How lame is that???????!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nero is designed strictly for casual users, and most members here are aware of that.

Something of which I am now painfully aware.

I'd suggest start with a short project with another app and see what you get.

It looks like that's what I'll be doing, yes. I've been googling to make sure that I won't regret picking Premiere Elements over Movie Studio on a trial basis, but so far have not found any serious discussion thread discussing the pros and cons of those two tools for newbies like me.

[poisondeathray]

Definitely play with the trials before you commit - sometimes people just don't like the interface or GUI even though the actual program might be capable. Also have a look at cyberlink powerdirector

Very few commercial editors will support your FLV (or other formats like MKV) natively for import (you might have to so dome workarounds like re-wrapping it into MP4 or TS container)

Freeware like aviutl does support MKV, FLV etc...natively because it uses l-smash and libav libraries (similar to ffmpeg)

FLV's are often variable frame rate (VFR). If your FLV is VFR, you might have problems editing it as VFR and trying to keep it in sync

[criggs]

Very few commercial editors will support your FLV (or other formats like MKV) natively for import (you might have to so dome workarounds like re-wrapping it into MP4 or TS container)

That's no problem. XMedia Recode does that beautifully, no degradation, no quality loss, no re-rendering, no conversion, no reprocessing. LIKE I WISH I COULD DO WITH NERO!

Freeware like aviutl does support MKV, FLV etc...natively because it uses l-smash and libav libraries (similar to ffmpeg)

FLV's are often variable frame rate (VFR). If your FLV is VFR, you might have problems editing it as VFR and trying to keep it in sync

Not sure. When I open it in VLC, all it says is that it's 25 frames a second, nothing about VFR. Of course, for all I know, VLC may be incapable of reporting that parameter. Perhaps I can find that out using a different player; I don't know.

Nero can handle flv files, no problem. And the render had no audio sync problems, just crappy video. (Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?)

[criggs]

I'd suggest start with a short project with another app and see what you get.

I went with a free trial of Premiere Elements. Still in the middle of the installation process. Man, this is some serious install thingy! Before I started, I created a System Restore point, just in case. I'm truly glad I did now. I feel like my whole computer is being rewritten.

[criggs]

Well, I installed a free trial version of Premiere Elements.

Very few commercial editors will support your FLV (or other formats like MKV) natively for import (you might have to so dome workarounds like re-wrapping it into MP4 or TS container)

You were right about that. So I re-contained it through XMedia Recode as an mp4 container, and that process was very rocky. XMedia Recode kept crashing, a brand new and unsettling development. Apparently the installation of Premiere Elements has destabilized XMedia Recode, which has been beautifully rock-solid for months. I don't know how I'm going to address this, because XMedia Recode has become central to my standard operating practices.

FLV's are often variable frame rate (VFR). If your FLV is VFR, you might have problems editing it as VFR and trying to keep it in sync

Sure enough, even as re-contained MP4 files, I started bumping into such problems. Right off the bat, the video was playing too slowly, even as the audio was playing back fine, which meant the video and audio just kept drifting farther and farther out of sync. Even though the files are supposed to play back at 25 fps, when I right-clicked the file in my bin and looked at the Interpret Footage, it said the frame rate was 17 per second!!!!!!!!

So I ordered it to treat the clip as a 25 fps clip, which totally repaired the video playback.

And caused the audio to play like chipmunks!

So I separately laid down the audio track without monkeying with it (or is that chip-munkeying with it? Oooh, boo, hiss....). But even then the audio had drifted considerably out of sync by the end of the clip.

So I did what I didn't want to do, and converted the original flv files to mp4 files, h.264, constant quality 18, which is about 5000kbs, not quite as good as I wanted, but this was just a test anyway.

Pulled it into Premiere Elements, and it played perfectly nice on frame rates.

Then I rendered the specific passage where Nero had been giving me excessive macroblocking (is that what it's called?). I rendered it twice, at 10 megs a second and 6 megs a second. NO sign of the macroblocking excesses in Nero. So you have solved my original problem. Thank you very much, LMotlow, poisondeathray and newpball for the help! Much appreciated!

It did occur to me just now that, while the audio may have sounded like talented young primates, it may have been playing at the right speed, just the wrong pitch. So I asked myself whether there was a way in Premiere Elements to preserve pitch, no matter what speed the audio track is playing. If I do find such an option, then I will not have to drag my source files through conversion. But, after I put the frame rate correct on the flv file, I found that, while the video was playing at the right speed, it was still not playing properly. Every minute or so, it would indulge in super-accelerated video playback, almost like the clip was being fast forwarded for ten seconds, after which it would settle down and play beautifully for about fifteen seconds, after which the same crap all over again.

So converting seems to be the only option.

The 5000 kb/s, while of acceptable quality, surprised me a bit; I'm used to constant quality 18 renders ending up in the 9 to 10 meg ps bitrate range; perhaps it is only 5000 in this case because my source may not be that fast to begin with (it has a bitrate of 1.9 megs ps). I'd always understood, however, that constant quality was constant quality was constant quality, which would not vary significantly depending on the quality of the source footage. But perhaps I was wrong about that.

For now, however, my immediate problem has been solved. Of course, the trial version of Premiere Elements plasters crap right over the video so the render is unusable. So I now have to decide whether I want to take the plunge and buy it. The Video Free Help page is wrong; the price has gone up to $100.