VideoHelp Forum
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3
1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 64
Thread
  1. Hi all,

    Have a quick question for the "group. I currently capture AVCHD from a consumer grade Canon Camera which records 1080i 29.97 Upper Field first video. I edit with Premiere with intentions to go to DVD. I have stopped using AME and Encore because the downsizing to 480 quality is terrible, even with "Maximum Render Quality"option in Adobe. So I use AME to go to MPEG2 bluray format and pretty much do a straight export but I choose the option "Lower Field First". Confirm with MediaInfo that the file shows now as Lower Field First. Now I take that file into TMPGENC Video Mastering works and use it to convert the video to DVD compliant MPEG2. I choose interlaced, op option of Upper or Lower. But when TMPGENC is done, it switches back to Upper, which when I burn to DVD looks like crap with the window blind effect.


    I'm stumped. I have no idea why I can't get TMPGENC to make this lower field fist.


    Any ideas?
    Quote Quote  
  2. Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    You'd probably get better results if you deinterlace your footage, edit, then export to DVD.
    Quote Quote  
  3. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    New York, US
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by Khaver View Post
    You'd probably get better results if you deinterlace your footage, edit, then export to DVD.
    Why?
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 09:36.
    Quote Quote  
  4. sanlyn ...

    Thanks for the reply. I am here to learn and I assume by your statement "screwed things up by resizing interlaced video". Do you agree that I should be taking the original AVCHD files from the camera and converting them to progressive for edit? Currently all I do is use tsmuxer to join the files together. Is there a good application that I should be using to convert the video to progressive to start with?
    Quote Quote  
  5. or a better question should be what is my best workflow here? I use canon avchd cameras that shoot 1080i video. I use premiere to edit. I can use either premiere or tmpgenc to encode to DVD. Going source -> mpeg2dvd -> mpeg was the best way I could get it to work. I'm not expert and aren't asking you to hand it to me on a silver platter but if you could help improve my exporting of 1080 source to dvd it would be greatly appreciated.
    Quote Quote  
  6. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    You would have thought downsizing 1080i to DVD spec would be a pretty common thing.
    Shouldn't the products mentioned be able to handle the process properly?

    I've always used Avisynth to do it, eg. Bob, resize, SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4,0,32).Weave()
    etc, etc. Don't these products do something similar under the covers.

    Perhaps we should create a sticky about this subject.
    Quote Quote  
  7. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    New York, US
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by davexnet View Post
    You would have thought downsizing 1080i to DVD spec would be a pretty common thing.
    Shouldn't the products mentioned be able to handle the process properly?

    I've always used Avisynth to do it, eg. Bob, resize, SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4,0,32).Weave()
    etc, etc. Don't these products do something similar under the covers.
    No.

    Did you say you always bob and then separate fields without specifying field order? Or do you always work with DV-AVI and nothing else? Avisynth assumes BFF.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 09:36.
    Quote Quote  
  8. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
    Originally Posted by davexnet View Post
    You would have thought downsizing 1080i to DVD spec would be a pretty common thing.
    Shouldn't the products mentioned be able to handle the process properly?

    I've always used Avisynth to do it, eg. Bob, resize, SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4,0,32).Weave()
    etc, etc. Don't these products do something similar under the covers.
    No.

    Did you say you always bob and then separate fields without specifying field order? Or do you always work with DV-AVI and nothing else? Avisynth assumes BFF.
    NO, I'm not the OP - just a member making an observation in general.
    Yes, I usually check field order in Virtualdub after the bob.
    Quote Quote  
  9. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    New York, US
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by petjuli View Post
    or a better question should be what is my best workflow here? I use canon avchd cameras that shoot 1080i video. I use premiere to edit. I can use either premiere or tmpgenc to encode to DVD. Going source -> mpeg2dvd -> mpeg was the best way I could get it to work. I'm not expert and aren't asking you to hand it to me on a silver platter but if you could help improve my exporting of 1080 source to dvd it would be greatly appreciated.
    First, you should specify which "TMPGenc" you're using, although I believe you already mentioned TVMW. Why are you "editing" with a lossy non-smart-rendering editor like Premiere Elements and re-encoding your entire video before going through yet another re-encode to DVD?

    1. Copy the AVCHD to your PC.
    2. Use Avisynth to deintelace with something better than simple-minded bob (try yadif or, better, QTGMC).
    3. Within Avisynth, you can losslessly make edits, resize, and stop stomping your audio by keeping it lossless PCM through this processing. You can reinterlace this output in Avisynth as well -- and either BFF or TFF will be valid.
    4. Feed the lossless 720x480 results into TMPGEnc Video Mastering Works and encode to DVD. The field order doesn't matter. If you started withYou can do more editing ehre, as well as joins, and use other features in TMVW.

    Does this take longer? Yes.
    Does this take up some hard drive space? Yes.
    Will you get far better results? Yes. Yes. Yes.
    Will you notice the difference? Yes. If you don't, you're wasting your time.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 09:36. Reason: Typos aren't mine -- the letters move when we're not looking !!
    Quote Quote  
  10. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    Here's a sample 1080i re-encoded with the NTSC DVD template in Tmpgenc 2.5 from 2004.
    To me, it looks as if it has handled the interlacing properly, no script required,
    just open the d2v directly.
    Image Attached Files
    Quote Quote  
  11. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    New York, US
    Search Comp PM
    Looks pretty decent, although there is aliasing and some edge flutter on motion. It's difficult to avoid in many cases, and sometimes it's the broadcaster's noisy signal that is at fault. Certainly, it's better than what the O.P. seems to be getting.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 09:36.
    Quote Quote  
  12. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    New York, US
    Search Comp PM
    I'll try to work up a AVCHD->DVD sample during the day. But I'll have to use a TV episode recorded with a Happauge HD PVR -- which would actually be more challenging than OTA (in New York City you can forget about OTA captures) because of other issues that petjuli hasn't even considered yet. Back later.

    Khaver is correct in that the vids have to be progressive for downsampling, etc., but I'll demonstrate that deinterlacing is often the wrong solution. Ever heard of telecine?
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 09:36.
    Quote Quote  
  13. VirtualDub has good resizer, that works well to resize 1080i to 480i or 576i I guess too.
    If you want to bypass VirtualDub, use SmartResize by Donald Graft Resize.vdf (based on that VD's resize ) that you can use in Avisynth. I tried a bunch of codes (1080i to 480i) , but that one seems to be very good for that purpose.
    Quote Quote  
  14. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by _Al_ View Post
    VirtualDub has good resizer, that works well to resize 1080i to 480i or 576i I guess too.
    Virtualdub has an interlace-aware resizer? That's news to me.
    Quote Quote  
  15. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    New York, US
    Search Comp PM
    Searched for an hour for a 100% interlaced AVCHD, but all 14 of my currently available, unarchived HD PVR captures of Castle, Monk, and Downton Abbey are partially interlaced (i.e, pulldown "interlace" of one kind or another). But that should illustrate that "deinterlacing" is inappropriate for many TV episodes. Later I can record some local news or some other broadcast source that uses vanilla interlace.

    The attached sample was recorded with an HD PVR off TNT HD cable at 29.972, 1080i, with hard-coded 3:2 pulldown frames that look like plain old interlace in NLE's and are treated that way by most processing apps. The HD PVR used a 13.5 Mbps target VBR bitrate, which has a range of 9.5 Mbps minimum and 20 Mbps max. Step 1: open the 1080i AVCHD .ts file in TMPGenc Smart Renderer and select a short sample sequence. Save the sequence as AVCHD and save audio separately as lossless PCM. Step 2: make a .dga project file with DGAVCindex and open it in VirtualDub. That script used TIVTC to decimate interlaced pulldown frames and output lossless AVI at the original 23.976 FPS.

    The ivtc'd lossless video was trimmed in two spots to make 2 scene cuts out of sequence, one at the start of the sample and one that jumps a couple of minutes into it. Resized with Spline36Resize to 720x480 progressive; color matrix converted Rec709->Rec601 for SD DVD, some anti-banding applied with GradFun2DBmod to relieve mild banding that often results from downsampling. The scenes were chosen to see how resizing as lossles media and re-encoding would affect fast motion, verticals and moving horizontals, fine gradations in large flat areas (first shot in this sample), and fine detail (such as the dark blue matrix on the acoustic tile in the background of shots 2 and 4, and fine stripes and checker patterns on suits and window blinds in later shots). Also checked for motion artifacts (smear).

    The lossless AVI result was loaded into TMPGenc 2.5 Plus, HCenc, and TVMW5. Sorry, folks, but I still say the old TMPGhenc 2.5 Plus does a better job at encoding standard-def MPEG2 than the others -- even though HCenc ain't bad and is preferred over TMPGenc for anime. For AVCHD or BluRay, I'd still go for TVMW5. TMPGenc 2.5 Plus encoded to DVD with soft-coded 3:2 pulldown for 29.972 playback and PCM audio. I ran the resulting .m2v and .wav through TMPGEnc MPEG Editor v3 (which I still prefer for SD work and which is still available) to resample the audio to Dolby AC3.

    The resulting mpg looks pretty much like the original AVCHD (except, of course, it's softer on a big screen after upsampling during playback); it even has the same mild encoding artifacts as the original.

    petjuli can check the sample and let us know if it looks better or worse than the sort of DVD the O.P. is getting now. I'll have to look for a really poorly interlaced newscast or something for an additional sample.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 09:37.
    Quote Quote  
  16. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    What is the difference between the interlaced AVCHD and an ATSC capture, 1080i to mpeg?
    Aren't they handled the same way?
    Quote Quote  
  17. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    New York, US
    Search Comp PM
    I don't know what that question means. ATSC is a tuner. The original that the sample was made from was captured with a Hauppauge HD PVR 1212 from the HD component outputs of an HD cable box.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 09:37.
    Quote Quote  
  18. Originally Posted by davexnet View Post
    Virtualdub has an interlace-aware resizer? That's news to me.
    regular resize filter
    Image Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Capture.JPG
Views:	367
Size:	42.8 KB
ID:	22717  

    Quote Quote  
  19. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    New York, US
    Search Comp PM
    You'll get sharpening artifacts and aliasing with Lanczos trying to downsample all the way to 720x480. Bicubic will give you a soft image you won't like. You'll also have problems with RGB conversion that might not be desirable, especially on previously-encoded media and anime. So far, resizing with Avisynth is superior and you have more choices.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 09:37.
    Quote Quote  
  20. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
    I don't know what that question means. ATSC is a tuner. The original that the sample was made from was captured with a Hauppauge HD PVR 1212 from the HD component outputs of an HD cable box.
    I was trying to compare over the air ATSC capture (no compression) Vs. HDMI input compressed to AVC
    Quote Quote  
  21. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by _Al_ View Post
    Originally Posted by davexnet View Post
    Virtualdub has an interlace-aware resizer? That's news to me.
    regular resize filter
    Thanks for pointing it out, never noticed that before!
    Quote Quote  
  22. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    New York, US
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by davexnet View Post
    I was trying to compare over the air ATSC capture (no compression) Vs. HDMI input compressed to AVC
    Oh. The HD PVR doesn't use HDMI. In my geographic area one can forget about OTA reception. We can forget about recording directly from the cable line as well, since all cable outfits around here require their box for reception. That change really ticked me off, because I was getting some beautiful 4:3 recordings on a Toshiba in 16:9 DAR with a very expensive Samsung HD tuner that could pick up about 45 unencrypted HD channels off the cable line, squish the output into a 4:3 image via s-video, and let me record them as described. Some of those 720x480 recordings look better than the godawful HD digital broadcasts that Cablevision and FIOS are pandering today as "high definition" -- which will demonstrate the difference between "high defintion" and "high resolution". It's more like "high-resolution/mediocre-definition" garbage much of the time.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 09:37.
    Quote Quote  
  23. ok, real world situation,...,
    loading AVCHD clips, edit them in NLE, export and encode in one click. So it is actually usable.

    YUV - RGB is not that important here because NLE makes it RGB anyway. What is important, is to not have jiggle in the video in horizontal lines or when camera is panning, after resizing to interlace SD for DVD. Lancsoz with older HDV camcorder because it is not that sharp anyway. If that VD filter had Spline I'd use it. For latest AVCHD I'd use bicubic.

    Directing this to camcorder videos, not movies or TV recordings, rips.
    Can you try this AVCHD?
    http://www.uploadmb.com/dw.php?id=1389488137
    Quote Quote  
  24. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    New York, US
    Search Comp PM
    Oops.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 09:37.
    Quote Quote  
  25. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    New York, US
    Search Comp PM
    Oops. Sorry, hit the wrong icon by mistake, then clicked "Submit" by mistake. Proof that no one is perfect.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 09:38.
    Quote Quote  
  26. Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
    Originally Posted by _Al_ View Post
    Directing this to camcorder videos, not movies or TV recordings, rips.
    Can you try this AVCHD?
    http://www.uploadmb.com/dw.php?id=1389488137
    What is it that one would want to do with it?
    To make m2v 720x480 interlace, resizing it to DVD compliant file, the only reason do downscale to interlace.
    So I could compare it with what I have here. I mean if you feel like to, no pressure ...

    I mean this topic is not about restoration and stuff, point is to just come up with Avisynth script or resizer that does that best, this is common problem for camcorder users, they try to encode interlace HD to DVD only to be really disappointed by encoder, mostly it is assumed that it is encoder, but it is resizing interlace content that seems to be a problem ... encoders in NLE are not that bad nowadays.
    Last edited by _Al_; 11th Jan 2014 at 22:00.
    Quote Quote  
  27. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    New York, US
    Search Comp PM
    Finally had some time to look at the clip more closely.

    The clip you submitted has already been through an NLE, IMO. Either that, or something is wrong with these cameras. With any deinterlace method available to us mere mortals you can see immediately that the vid doesn't deinterlace properly. There's little sense to going through with it; it's schizo from the start.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 09:38.
    Quote Quote  
  28. This is a Sony camcorder clip, not sure what model, not mine. But regular consumer model shooting 60i. Not the cheapest, not the most expensive consumer model.

    This is my point actually.
    Regular folk footage. Looking stunning on big screen. But trying to have so so results while making DVD. All complain of jiggle effect at the end. Quality goes down that is kind of clear for anybody but those "moving", disruptive artifacts are source of complainants after resizing. Difficult to resize, motions, interlace, hand held. Can you get something noticeable better than this? No restoration, just some script. This was done with regular editing workflow: NLE-RGB-resize in Avisynth (smart resize working in RGB)-YUV-encoding by HcEncoder
    Image Attached Files
    Quote Quote  
  29. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    It looks pretty much what you'd expect, unfortunately.

    I played it in Powerdvd version 6 in Windows XP; do not see any "jiggle effect"

    I'll give it a go myself, but not sure if I can get any better.

    I tried encoding in HCenc, Tmpenc 2.5, and eventually started up AvstoDVD and use the default encoder
    FFmpeg. I seem to be getting odd moire patterns on some book covers that did not look as bad in
    your version - not sure why that would be. Any way, here's the CBR FFmpeg version for comparison.
    The footage seems to be 29.97 frames/59.94 fields, same as good old NTSC interlaced.

    I agree about some of the fuzzines in the footage - could be because of low light.

    This is the script:
    Video = DirectShowSource("K:\k-temp\#misc\( uploadMB.com ) 00239.MTS", fps=29.97, audio=false)

    Video = Video.ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)
    Video = Video.LeakKernelBob(1,7,false,false)
    Video = Video.lanczosresize(720,480)
    Video = Video.SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4,1,2).Weave()

    Return Video
    Image Attached Files
    Last edited by davexnet; 12th Jan 2014 at 00:58.
    Quote Quote  
  30. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    New York, US
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by _Al_ View Post
    This is a Sony camcorder clip, not sure what model, not mine. But regular consumer model shooting 60i. Not the cheapest, not the most expensive consumer model.
    Every info I can get on the submitted clip says 29.97i, not 60i. 1080i for AVCHD at 60i is not standard. Or maybe you're saying it's 60 FIELDS per sec instead of FRAMES p/s. This sounds rather disorganized (?) and misleading (?). It also appears to have been around the block a few times and is noisy enough to make it look like tape.

    And I don't even think it's interlaced. It looks blend-deinterlaced to me.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 09:38.
    Quote Quote  



Similar Threads

Visit our sponsor! Try DVDFab and backup Blu-rays!