Need advice on what vcr to use for capturing older video tapes

[sanlyn]

BTW, videeo: I think the tbc and input filters on the ES20 are active as pass-thru on the Line 1 input only.

[videeo]

Thanks sanlyn, I will take a closer look at those settings with the video sequence I captured of video4.avi with the RCA deck.

I was looking into Neat Video since you mentioned it early in this thread. Would you recommend that utility for these kinds of clips? I did try it out on some of them and it makes some shots look nice, but it does get a little tripped-up by the jumpy parts, which hopefully the ES20 will resolve. I also noticed that the dark borders influence the interior of the footage in the upper-left-hand corner. I did see that they made a fix for it, but I am using the trial version, and it probably hasn't propagated to the downloads since it was addressed very recently.

I noticed that you warn about using Neat Video along with other filters... what happens if you do? I was running it with other stuff on-top of Neat Video, and it seemed OK.

[sanlyn]

NeatVideo is great for really grungy video. The caps I've seen so far wouldn't benefit. They have problems, but not a lot of the kind of noisy grungy junk that NeatVideo works on -- at least, NeatVideo would be used here with very weak settings. It's also more complicated than it looks; it's best used with its Advanced Interface and tweaking the filter powers (the defaults are way, way too strong. And go lightly with that sharpener!).

Being able to use more than one VCR is a benefit. Some tapes look better on one than on another. Be sure to use Line 1 input on the ES20. You can use composite for input, then use s-video from the ES20's output to your capture. The ES20 has a good composite/s-video converter. You should see a difference right away.

[videeo]

Good call on the composite to s-video conversion, I would have assumed that once it's out composite, it wouldn't matter what you do with the chain after that.

[sanlyn]

It matters.

[sanlyn]

...and after you get your capture procedures and whatnot together, later get one of these if you can:
http://www.amazon.com/Acoustic-Research-Video-Cable-AP001/dp/B00005LACF/ref=sr_1_1?ie=...3055048&sr=8-1

And one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/Acoustic-Research-PR-121-Series-S-video/dp/B000246RLK/ref=sr_1_5...3054912&sr=8-5

I have a PC client tonight and another tomorrow afternoon. Helps pay for all these video toys. Back later.

[manono]

Hey, I have three sets of the AR Pro Series ll cables. I just wanted to get something of better quality than the standard junk and it seems I lucked out and got good ones with the sanlyn Seal Of Approval on them.

[sanlyn]

Not the very best, but whaddyagonna do at that price? Beats RadioShack.

[Mini-Me]

I love Monoprice...
Back in the day, they had cheap cables. Today, they have cheap cables thick enough to pull a horse with.

[robjv1]

I actually managed to find my W7U on Craigslist for $337 shipped..a great price for a W5U, let alone a W7U!

Wow, that is fantastic! That's about $200 less than I paid for the cheapest SR-W5U I've purchased. Do you have a lot of tapes with mono sound or is most of your stuff Hi-Fi? When you get it, you may want to do a 20-30 minute playback test run with a mono tape to verify that it works 100%, as some of those units seem to have an issue where you'll occasionally get a slight 'chirping' noise in the audio. Sometimes it'll cause a brief picture disturbance as well (a line or two of noise), but it only seems to impact the mono audio and not the hi-fi track. I imagine it's a belt related issue.

There's still an open ebay listing for a W5U though. It's the one with both W5U and W7U in the description (to increase search hits). The seller claims it's in working condition but says "Sold as-is due to its age,no returns." She also originally listed at a Buy It Now price of $1200 I think, PLUS $42.50 shipping. How outrageous is that? She seriously asked for by far the highest amount any W5U has sold for in years and years (AFAIK), for a unit that might as well be described as "probably broken?"

Yes, I've been tracking that item as well -- $1200 was the initial listing price which is insane. The top is pretty scratched up, which likely means she (or someone else) had something sitting on top of it and this is not a deck you want to set anything on top of as it generates a ton of heat that is all displaced through the top of the deck. Plus the daughter cards (which are almost tall enough to touch the top of the chassis) are sensitive to pressure and pushing down on them can break the card and/or the connectors. Eeek. Plus she states that it is "missing the wooden side panels" which is interesting, since in complete working condition, it has molded plastic side panels. I don't understand why she is listing it for so much more on Craigslist, but I suppose it is a Manhattan listing. A huge gamble indeed.

As a side note, I also love how some of these sellers make it out like they're not asking much for a unit with a > $5000 MSRP...when the vast majority of these units were apparently brought to the US brand new/factory-refurbished for $949 (W5U) and $999 (W7U), and many (most?) have become broken since then.

I have a feeling a lot of these folks end up with these decks through surplus equipment sales and figure they can make a killing once they read all the forum posts about them. Plus a lot of sites make a big deal about the MSRP, so I'm sure that inflates the price, even though that MSRP was quoted at a time when consumers had almost zero access to HD playback, much less HD recording.

[Mini-Me]

Wow, that is fantastic! That's about $200 less than I paid for the cheapest SR-W5U I've purchased. Do you have a lot of tapes with mono sound or is most of your stuff Hi-Fi? When you get it, you may want to do a 20-30 minute playback test run with a mono tape to verify that it works 100%, as some of those units seem to have an issue where you'll occasionally get a slight 'chirping' noise in the audio. Sometimes it'll cause a brief picture disturbance as well (a line or two of noise). I imagine it's a belt related issue.

Thank you for the heads-up! I know to check the Hi-Fi sound from your earlier posts, but I'll make sure to check mono too. I've focused so much on picture quality thus far that I've rarely paid any attention to the sound, so I'm honestly not sure how many mono vs. stereo tapes I have. The vast majority are only from three different camcorders though, and the oldest camcorder probably had mono sound. I'll just tape a tape from each camcorder to be sure. That's after I test my Lethal Weapon 2 tape, which I routinely use to make sure a new VCR isn't going to tear up or erase my tapes.

I can't WAIT for tomorrow, but there are so many potential issues it could have (jitter, broken Hi-Fi, chirping mono, worn heads, bad tracking, bad caps/solder, gremlins, etc.) that I'm just as nervous as I am excited.

Yes, I've been tracking that item as well -- $1200 was the initial listing price which is insane. The top is pretty scratched up, which likely means she (or someone else) had something sitting on top of it and this is not a deck you want to set anything on top of as it generates a ton of heat that is all displaced through the top of the deck. Plus the daughter cards (which are almost tall enough to touch the top of the chassis) are sensitive to pressure and pushing down on them can break the card and/or the connectors. Eeek. Plus she states that it is "missing the wooden side panels" which is interesting, since in complete working condition, it has molded plastic side panels I don't understand why she is listing it for so much more on Craigslist, but I suppose it is a Manhattan listing. A huge gamble indeed.

I figured she was disappointed about the lack of response from suckers on ebay, so she decided to broaden her reach and start high again.

I thought the comment about wooden side panels was strange too. Maybe the previous owner superglued blocks of wood to the side to give the unit that "extra deluxe JVC touch," and she thought they were supposed to be there after they fell off...or something. I actually wondered if she meant that the side panels were missing entirely. (EDIT: Yeah, that's what the picture shows.) Either way, molded plastic side panels? I'm surprised they aren't metal for a machine of this caliber.

As far as stacking goes, do you think it would be a problem if I put a Signvideo proc amp on top (in the front, not over the vents)? I'm working in relatively limited space, so your comments about the daughter boards made me wonder if I'll have to rethink a few things.

I have a feeling a lot of these folks end up with these decks through surplus equipment sales and figure they can make a killing once they read all the forum posts about them. Plus a lot of sites make a big deal about the MSRP, so I'm sure that inflates the price, even though that MSRP was quoted at a time when consumers had almost zero access to HD playback, much less HD recording .

I agree. These machines are also pretty useless for their WVHS capabilities today, because:

• few WVHS movies were ever made.
• if you want to record HDTV to tape, DVHS has a higher resolution more commensurate with today's TV sources (despite compression).

That would seem to make them materially useful only to collectors and no-compromise VHS/SVHS digitizers willing to risk more money than most. It's a shame it took overengineered WVHS units to get the best from plain-old VHS, but that's the way of the world, I guess. It would be nice to find all these surplus equipment sales where so many of the sellers are obtaining their units though.

[robjv1]

Thank you for the heads-up! I know to check the Hi-Fi sound from your earlier posts, but I'll make sure to check mono too. I've focused so much on picture quality thus far that I've rarely paid any attention to the sound, so I'm honestly not sure how many mono vs. stereo tapes I have. The vast majority are only from three different camcorders though, and the oldest camcorder probably had mono sound. I'll just tape a tape from each camcorder to be sure. That's after I test my Lethal Weapon 2 tape, which I routinely use to make sure a new VCR isn't going to tear up or erase my tapes.

No problem, you can also test it by toggling off the hi-fi audio track on a hi-fi tape, as it appears in that scenario too (at least on one of my decks). I'm not a huge fan of the mono audio on any JVC deck, so I usually capture the audio using a Panasonic deck anyway, so it doesn't bother me much. I've noticed it much more clearly and frequently with EP tapes than those any other tape speed, so if have one of those lying around, I'd check it out for sure. If it hasn't shown up within 20 minutes or so, I'd suspect it's just fine.

I thought the comment about wooden side panels was strange too. Maybe the previous owner superglued blocks of wood to the side to give the unit that "extra deluxe JVC touch," and she thought they were supposed to be there after they fell off...or something. I actually wondered if she meant that the side panels were missing entirely. Either way, molded plastic side panels? I'm surprised they aren't metal for a machine of this caliber.

Yeah, I am surprised they are not metal either. They connect through three small latches in the external casing of the deck. They aren't necessary for operation thankfully -- I actually leave mine off because I frequently clean the heads and they are a pain to remove every time.

As far as stacking goes, do you think it would be a problem if I put a Signvideo proc amp on top (in the front, not over the vents)? I'm working in relatively limited space, so your comments about the daughter boards made me wonder if I'll have to rethink a few things.

Yeah, I think that'd be fine -- is it the PA-100? Those are fairly compact units and will fit nicely in the safe area (front and center, which is over the cassette assembly). Almost all of the cards are on the sides of the unit, so I'd make sure those side vents were uncovered and that it had some room around it.

Speaking of WVHS and I hate to mention this in here, because I would like to snag it at a low price just for kicks haha -- but the precursor to the more common SR-W5U/SR-W7U decks, the SR-W320U is up on eBay for a starting bid of $9.99. First time I've seen one of those in a long time. From all indications that I can gather from the SR-W5U Service manual, the W5U/W7U improves upon the TBC jitter and VHS performance from the SR-W320U, so I doubt it is going to be an improvement over those decks in any way, but there is so little known about that deck I'd just like to play around with it and see how it compares. Of course it's a "I can't test it and there are no returns no matter what" type of disclaimer on it, so hopefully it doesn't go very high.

I still haven't seen a single commercially released W-VHS movie -- does anybody know of a listing of where to see what actually got released?

[sanlyn]

I love Monoprice...
Back in the day, they had cheap cables. Today, they have cheap cables thick enough to pull a horse with.

Until a year ago Monoprice was the only site that carried my favorite el-cheapo no-name s-video cable. Gradually it disappeared from Amazon. buy.com, smaller sites. When I saw that, I bought the last three copies that Monoprice had ("Only 3 left. Order now...") Later I saw they listed another cheapie; I thought maybe it's the same wire and they changed the plug or something. But no--the newer one arrived and had a soft, greenish junk image with what looked like dot crawl or something, and moire patterns on fine detail. Oh, well. My 12 copies of the old one will just have to last. No, 11 now; one of the, developed a bad pin (well, they were cheap, after all!).

[sanlyn]

Thanks sanlyn, I will take a closer look at those settings with the video sequence I captured of video4.avi with the RCA deck.

The sample that you said was captured with the RCA was test5.avi

I compared some differences between the original test4 and test5 in this earlier post #53, here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/344585-Need-advice-on-what-vcr-to-use-for-capturing...=1#post2150389

[videeo]

I haven't posted the footage contained in test4.avi I took with the RCA. But here is some. I do see the blue chroma shadow issue here on the arm as well.

test15-rca-snippet.avi

The ES20 is supposed to arrive next Thurs.

[sanlyn]

Maybe the ES20 will even get there early (I sometimes hate it when that happens, I'm never home when something shows up early). I'm waiting for a 1996 Panasonic PV-4664 VCR. This will be my second copy and my 4th PV-46xx series. I'm afraid I worked my first one to death, I must have run 1000 hours of captures before the heads started wearing, and no replacements. It was already an old-timer when I bought it. Forget that fancy JVC stuff, these 1996-1998 Panasonics delivered images and audio that make those overrated JVC/tbc/DyanmicCylinder/SuperDNR/GrandFunkRailroad/ tape-munchers look like the Stanley Steamers of VCR Land. Oops, shouldn't say all that. Some of those JVC's were OK Stuff, but that '95-'98 vintage of Pannies is stiff competition, will track just about anything without chewing it up and burping it back at you.

test15 -- yes, a touch of some bleed affect (99.9% of VHS will have some degree of that). But contrast and color are much better. Skin tones aren't flooded with that crazy cyan haze. and red no longer looks as if it wants to take a trip to Purple City. Look at that same picnic table scene in the original Test4 we've been working on, this test15 is a big difference. It does have those dots on the right (maybe it's just the tape and the way it tracks in that player), but that's easy to fix. Not as bad as my first VCR, a 2-head monophonic JVC of the pleistocene era that I used with a b&w tv. I'd always used that JVC with a CRT TV and their usual overscan. Not until I played old home-made tapes on my non-overscan PC monitor did I discover that the JVC didn't record at all in the left or right borders; it's 12 pixels of pure white on each side, with edges so rough I had to mask both sides with 16 pixels of black.

Kind of difficult to see how you don't notice a difference between the two players, as far as capture goes.

[sanlyn]

Took a longer look at test15. There is less red and blue push (overbrightness) in the RCA. Less jitter in that short sample of apparently worn-out tape. There are only 4 pixels of head-switching noise at the bottom, not 10.

[Mini-Me]

No problem, you can also test it by toggling off the hi-fi audio track on a hi-fi tape, as it appears in that scenario too (at least on one of my decks). I'm not a huge fan of the mono audio on any JVC deck, so I usually capture the audio using a Panasonic deck anyway, so it doesn't bother me much. I've noticed it much more clearly and frequently with EP tapes than those any other tape speed, so if have one of those lying around, I'd check it out for sure. If it hasn't shown up within 20 minutes or so, I'd suspect it's just fine.

Oh, no...it's intermittent. That means I actually have to sit down and pay attention to what my ears are hearing... At least 20 minutes isn't that long. Thanks for letting me know your opinion on the mono sound btw: I'll keep an ear out for it and make a point to compare the mono audio on my various decks.

I'm looking forward to hearing the Hi-Fi though: So far, my best deck for Hi-Fi is probably my Sharp H993. I find the picture far too overprocessed with DNR and local contrast enhancement despite the great tracking (and it's only mediocre in the detail department), but the only Hi-Fi noise I hear is very soft and gentle. My AG1980 has a bit of crackle to it, and my AG2560 has a louder/fuzzier version of the Sharp's noise.

Yeah, I am surprised they are not metal either. They connect through three small latches in the external casing of the deck. They aren't necessary for operation thankfully -- I actually leave mine off because I frequently clean the heads and they are a pain to remove every time.

You know, that's another thing I've wondered about: The W5U manual says to clean the heads with the rare WCD-5 cleaning tape every 20 hours of operation, IIRC...but those are practically impossible to find. Have you had success just using alcohol and chamois, like manually cleaning any other deck? How often do you actually find it necessary to clean them?

Yeah, I think that'd be fine -- is it the PA-100? Those are fairly compact units and will fit nicely in the safe area (front and center, which is over the cassette assembly). Almost all of the cards are on the sides of the unit, so I'd make sure those side vents were uncovered and that it had some room around it.

Mine's actually a PA-200 (I got such a wonderful deal on that, that I'd feel guilty talking about it). I assume the extra weight wouldn't be a problem?

Speaking of WVHS and I hate to mention this in here, because I would like to snag it at a low price just for kicks haha -- but the precursor to the more common SR-W5U/SR-W7U decks, the SR-W320U is up on eBay for a starting bid of $9.99. First time I've seen one of those in a long time. From all indications that I can gather from the SR-W5U Service manual, the W5U/W7U improves upon the TBC jitter and VHS performance from the SR-W320U, so I doubt it is going to be an improvement over those decks in any way, but there is so little known about that deck I'd just like to play around with it and see how it compares. Of course it's a "I can't test it and there are no returns no matter what" type of disclaimer on it, so hopefully it doesn't go very high.

Y U NO KEEP IT HUSH HUSH?!? I do search for those on occasion, and I've always wondered where the TBC stands relative to the W5U/W7U. I don't have a point of reference yet though, since I won't have my W7U for...well, hopefully just a few minutes. (EDIT: NOOOOOOOOOO...the mailman turned up empty-handed again. They gave themselves a week after shipping before their expected delivery date, and they STILL couldn't hit that target.) Despite the inferior circuitry, I wonder if the W320's superior WVHS recording extends to VHS/SVHS playback as well. After all, it stands to reason that head quality is the biggest reason behind the W5U/W7U's detail resolution. (Then again, maybe other units just have worse circuitry: Chroma information is stored in higher frequencies, so you'd think any unit capable of reading chroma should be able to extract full luma detail from the tape...but considering the extreme noisiness of chroma output on most decks, maybe they do struggle after all. Round and round in circles I go. )

Still, do the units use the same heads for all formats or different heads entirely for WVHS? Even if the same heads are used for all formats, I doubt the W320 could really improve much for VHS/SVHS, considering any machine capable of WVHS likely exceeds the technical requirements for reading everything there is to be read from lower resolution formats...

I still haven't seen a single commercially released W-VHS movie -- does anybody know of a listing of where to see what actually got released?

There can't be many, so I imagine some collector has probably written up a list somewhere. The problem is that it's hard to search, because Waubonsie Valley High School keeps mucking up the results.

[videeo]

Kind of difficult to see how you don't notice a difference between the two players, as far as capture goes.

A trip to Purple City sounds fun... That's why I posted here, I don't think I have watched VHS for several years until now. When we first pulled this tape out and watched it, we were blown away by how bad it looks compared to HD. I think the noise content is really distracting if you are not used to it. I can tell a difference if I flip back and forth between the different captures with the same frame. In general the RCA looks less washed out but also darker, and there might be slightly more noise. It looks like there are some line alignment differences as well, especially the top half of the particular frame I looked at.

[robjv1]

I'm looking forward to hearing the Hi-Fi though: So far, my best deck for Hi-Fi is probably my Sharp H993. I find the picture far too overprocessed with DNR and local contrast enhancement despite the great tracking (and it's only mediocre in the detail department), but the only Hi-Fi noise I hear is very soft and gentle. My AG1980 has a bit of crackle to it, and my AG2560 has a louder/fuzzier version of the Sharp's noise.

Yes, I'm fairly confident you'll be very pleased with it! I only have a few marginal tapes where you can hear it in the slightest and pretty much only on headphones or on the TV with the treble turned all the way up beyond a reasonable level. When I am feeling particularly obsessive-compulsive about it, I'll run pieces here and there through a click and pop filter on the computer, but your days of having to babysit will likely be over.

You know, that's another thing I've wondered about: The W5U manual says to clean the heads with the rare WCD-5 cleaning tape every 20 hours of operation, IIRC...but those are practically impossible to find. Have you had success just using alcohol and chamois, like manually cleaning any other deck? How often do you actually find it necessary to clean them?

I've used the cleaning tape a few times for a quick fix, but nine times out of ten it's nothing that can't also be accomplished by running a blank or never watched studio tape through it for a couple of minutes. The only times I have needed to clean it was due to a mucked up tape, but I try to clean the heads using the alcohol and chamois sticks on a somewhat regular schedule anyway. I use the deck pretty heavily and often with some very old tapes that I rescued from my parents musty garage. If you're working with commercial masters or well stored cable recordings, I doubt you'll have to clean it very much at all.

Mine's actually a PA-200 (I got such a wonderful deal on that, that I'd feel guilty talking about it). I assume the extra weight wouldn't be a problem?

You seem to be the king of getting the good deal . I actually have the same one, though it's the Studio-One version. I *think* I got a good deal on it, looks like I paid $275 for it plus $18 for shipping way back in 2006. I don't think it's heavy enough to make a difference, but I would err on the side of caution personally. I've noticed that all of the SR-W5U decks (not sure about the SR-W7U) have some foam rubber inside the case over certain components, so perhaps try to position it away from those areas.

Y U NO KEEP IT HUSH HUSH?!? I do search for those on occasion, and I've always wondered where the TBC stands relative to the W5U/W7U. I don't have a point of reference yet though, since I won't have my W7U for...well, hopefully just a few minutes. (EDIT: NOOOOOOOOOO...the mailman turned up empty-handed again. They gave themselves a week after shipping before their expected delivery date, and they STILL couldn't hit that target.) Despite the inferior circuitry, I wonder if the W320's superior WVHS recording extends to VHS/SVHS playback as well. After all, it stands to reason that head quality is the biggest reason behind the W5U/W7U's detail resolution. (Then again, maybe other units just have worse circuitry: Chroma information is stored in higher frequencies, so you'd think any unit capable of reading chroma should be able to extract full luma detail from the tape...but considering the extreme noisiness of chroma output on most decks, maybe they do struggle after all. Round and round in circles I go. Still, do the units use the same heads for all formats or different heads entirely for WVHS? Even if the same heads are used for all formats, I doubt the W320 could really improve much for VHS/SVHS, considering any machine capable of WVHS likely exceeds the technical requirements for reading everything there is to be read from lower resolution formats...)

Geez, they're gonna make you wait till Monday! Yeah that's the big question to me as well -- does the SR-W320s reportedly better WVHS playback carry over to the SVHS/VHS side. It is my understanding that (minus the improvements to the TBC circuit) the SR-W5U and SR-W7U are cost-reduced versions of the previous model, which had around a $10,000 MSRP (in 1995). I'm not sure if it uses different heads or not, I should check the model # in the parts list to see if they are identical. Still, it's 16 years old and I have a feeling that if this person somehow acquired it but has "no idea how to test it" and throws it up at a $9.99 starting price, that it probably powers on and not much else. If the bidding stays low though, it might make a nice looking $50 paperweight heh

There can't be many, so I imagine some collector has probably written up a list somewhere. The problem is that it's hard to search, because Waubonsie Valley High School keeps mucking up the results.

LOL. So true. I've definitely had to work out my goggle and research library skills to scouring for information on these decks. Now if I just had the good sense of Orsetto to understand the connections between them, I'd really have something...

Here's a little tidbit from the SR-W5U service manual regarding the improvements to VHS/SVHS playback:

"In the SR-W320U, clamp errors were generated during playback due to overshooting and smearing caused by the main emphasis during recording and deemphasis during playback. This resulted in DC color shifting. The SR-W5U adopts a method to calculate the clamp reference according to the offset amount detected from the difference between the clamp pixels and 50% white using the calibration signals of the TCI signal to correct this hue change and automatically correct change in the emphasis through the years and deviation of elements. The clamp reference value is calculated using a system controller software to reduce burden on the IC circuit and allow more freedom and expandability"

I also wonder if the amount of TBC memory is different -- the SR-W5U and SR-W7U each have 4MB. You know, after reading the SR-W5U service manual text more closely, it may in fact be possible that the SR-W320U does not even possess a TBC for VHS/SVHS playback as all of the references to it seem to be regarding the WVHS playback and the references to the VHS playback refer to the 'new 629 TBC, the same one mounted on the JVC HR-20000.

EDIT: I take that back regarding the TBC, there is a button right on the front that says "SVHS TBC"

[Mini-Me]

I've used the cleaning tape a few times for a quick fix, but nine times out of ten it's nothing that can't also be accomplished by running a blank or never watched studio tape through it for a couple of minutes. The only times I have needed to clean it was due to a mucked up tape, but I try to clean the heads using the alcohol and chamois sticks on a somewhat regular schedule anyway. I use the deck pretty heavily and often with some very old tapes that I rescued from my parents musty garage. If you're working with commercial masters or well stored cable recordings, I doubt you'll have to clean it very much at all.

I wouldn't exactly say my tapes are well-stored, since they sat for years in boxes in disorganized piles rather than neatly standing them up along their long edge. Plus, I've kept a number sitting out the past few months. They haven't had to deal with really cold or really hot/humid conditions in a garage though, so that's a plus.

I do have one or two regular VHS tapes that seem inherently hard to track (extremely jittery), and one of them seems to be getting stripped whenever it's played (the last time I played it in my AG1980 - immediately after cleaning the heads - the AG1980 would only play static afterwards, until I cleaned the heads again).

I'm more concerned about my VHS-C tapes though: They have rock solid tracking in the original camcorder, but they can get quite jittery when playing them back in a VCR with an adapter (especially my AG1980). The original camcorder also shows far more detail than my other VCR's, but it also sharpens and creates significant halos that are unique to it (they're very strange though for sharpening artifacts, because they're very smooth or almost soft, as opposed to coarse). I'm hoping the W7U manages a comparable level of tracking stability, so I can hopefully get the same detail without the excessive haloing. Have you ever tried playing back VHS-C tapes in your W5U? If so, how well did that work, and have you found any particular adapter to work well?

You seem to be the king of getting the good deal . I actually have the same one, though it's the Studio-One version. I *think* I got a good deal on it, looks like I paid $275 for it plus $18 for shipping way back in 2006. I don't think it's heavy enough to make a difference, but I would err on the side of caution personally. I've noticed that all of the SR-W5U decks (not sure about the SR-W7U) have some foam rubber inside the case over certain components, so perhaps try to position it away from those areas.

Actually, I have the Studio 1 Productions version as well. I've been managing to get lucky with deals lately, but I also got swindled twice in a row on ebay a few years back for a good bit of money, so my luck's really just catching up. Anyway, I'll keep your advice in mind...I originally didn't think it would be a problem, but I'll be cautious like you suggest.

Geez, they're gonna make you wait till Monday! Yeah that's the big question to me as well -- does the SR-W320s reportedly better WVHS playback carry over to the SVHS/VHS side. It is my understanding that (minus the improvements to the TBC circuit) the SR-W5U and SR-W7U are cost-reduced versions of the previous model, which had around a $10,000 MSRP (in 1995). I'm not sure if it uses different heads or not, I should check the model # in the parts list to see if they are identical. Still, it's 16 years old and I have a feeling that if this person somehow acquired it but has "no idea how to test it" and throws it up at a $9.99 starting price, that it probably powers on and not much else. If the bidding stays low though, it might make a nice looking $50 paperweight heh

Yeah, the starting price is extremely unusual. Most experienced sellers try to protect their investment by setting a higher starting price...and he could be setting it low to avoid problems with returns, whereas putting a broken item up and asking for an outrageous price might cause more problems.

LOL. So true. I've definitely had to work out my goggle and research library skills to scouring for information on these decks. Now if I just had the good sense of Orsetto to understand the connections between them, I'd really have something...

Here's a little tidbit from the SR-W5U service manual regarding the improvements to VHS/SVHS playback:

"In the SR-W320U, clamp errors were generated during playback due to overshooting and smearing caused by the main emphasis during recording and deemphasis during playback. This resulted in DC color shifting. The SR-W5U adopts a method to calculate the clamp reference according to the offset amount detected from the difference between the clamp pixels and 50% white using the calibration signals of the TCI signal to correct this hue change and automatically correct change in the emphasis through the years and deviation of elements. The clamp reference value is calculated using a system controller software to reduce burden on the IC circuit and allow more freedom and expandability"

I also wonder if the amount of TBC memory is different -- the SR-W5U and SR-W7U each have 4MB. You know, after reading the SR-W5U service manual text more closely, it may in fact be possible that the SR-W320U does not even possess a TBC for VHS/SVHS playback as all of the references to it seem to be regarding the WVHS playback and the references to the VHS playback refer to the 'new 629 TBC, the same one mounted on the JVC HR-20000.

EDIT: I take that back regarding the TBC, there is a button right on the front that says "SVHS TBC"

That's interesting information from the service manual: I never realized the W5U had circuitry to keep its color precise. I just wish I knew enough about how VCR's worked to fully understand it all.

It's funny that the W5U/W7U only have 4MB of RAM. Maybe that's all they need, but I sometimes wonder what these decks could do with a cheap gigabyte or so. I've never heard of the HR-20000 though. From what I gather, it's a Japanese DVHS model with no US equivalent? I presume the TBC performance must be excellent if it has the same one as the W5U/W7U, but I wonder whether its overall performance is closer to the WVHS decks or the other DVHS decks...

EDIT: Accidentally posted too early, halfway through my response

[robjv1]

Regarding the VHS-C tapes -- I tried converting exactly one of them for fun (a friends tape) using an adapter I bought at some discount store on clearance (cheapo Memorex VHS-C adapter) and it didn't play well at all, predictably.

Not sure if the issue was the tape or the adapter (though I imagine it was probably a little of both) but I didn't have much success. It sort of looked like what happens on some older two head VCRs when you switched from SP to EP or vice-versa while recording -- the video and sound go haywire for a second and then recover, except in this case it would only recover for a few moments before doing it all over again. The picture did look as good as any other tape though when it was stable. I imagine if you buy an adapter that costs more than $5 that you'll have more success than I did I never did have any VHS-C cameras though, so opportunities to test it out have been slim.

Yeah the RAM on these decks does seem a little slim comparatively haha, but perhaps that reflects the fact that these are dedicated, single-purpose machines that have no other resources to manage, so almost all of the memory goes towards that one function. At the same time, I think the SR-W5U/7U came out in 1997 and by then at least 64 MB RAM was at standard in PCs wasn't it? Oh well.

This is all I could find on the HR-20000, badly translated from Japanese to English. It looks to have been manufactured in 1993 and is very similar in appearance to the JVC SR-320U that came out in 1995. Sounds like a high-rent SVHS deck to me.

Yeah, I definitely don't understand all of the technical specs either -- it's definitely for someone with a more intimate knowledge of engineering than I have. I'm going to try to track down the owners/service manual for the W320U and see if it sounds worth my time or not to bid on.

[robjv1]

Unfortunately, this part isn't true. You DO need a proc amp if you're using the DVDR3475 for passthrough. Software controls are useless after the signal passes through, because the DVDR3475 causes flickering and internal clipping when the input gain is too high. It doesn't happen all the time, but it will happen in brighter scenes.

I can confirm that this behavior is also present in the Phillips DVDR3575H unit as well. This is a shame because I think it does an even better job than the Panasonic ES-10 at fixing geometric distortions and minimizing jitter. I have a Studio One PA-200 in-line and as long as I keep things in a safe range it does fine, but without it or with the gain turned up just a little too high, there is clipping in the whites, especially noticeable in on-screen text. I also notice an intermittent flicker (does not always appear) in many white or almost totally white scenes. I suppose I should add that the ES-10 similarly displays flicker in some instances as well and definitely results in an overall shoddier looking image in dark scenes, so for tapes where they won't play correctly without one of these devices, as long as you have a proc amp, the DVDR3575 might be the lesser of two evils.

[Mini-Me]

Regarding the VHS-C tapes -- I tried converting exactly one of them for fun (a friends tape) using an adapter I bought at some discount store on clearance (cheapo Memorex VHS-C adapter) and it didn't play well at all, predictably.

Not sure if the issue was the tape or the adapter (though I imagine it was probably a little of both) but I didn't have much success. It sort of looked like what happens on some older two head VCRs when you switched from SP to EP or vice-versa while recording -- the video and sound go haywire for a second and then recover, except in this case it would only recover for a few moments before doing it all over again. The picture did look as good as any other tape though when it was stable. I imagine if you buy an adapter that costs more than $5 that you'll have more success than I did I never did have any VHS-C cameras though, so opportunities to test it out have been slim.

Yeah the RAM on these decks does seem a little slim comparatively haha, but perhaps that reflects the fact that these are dedicated, single-purpose machines that have no other resources to manage, so almost all of the memory goes towards that one function. At the same time, I think the SR-W5U/7U came out in 1997 and by then at least 64 MB RAM was at standard in PCs wasn't it? Oh well.

This is all I could find on the HR-20000, badly translated from Japanese to English. It looks to have been manufactured in 1993 and is very similar in appearance to the JVC SR-320U that came out in 1995. Sounds like a high-rent SVHS deck to me.

Yeah, I definitely don't understand all of the technical specs either -- it's definitely for someone with a more intimate knowledge of engineering than I have. I'm going to try to track down the owners/service manual for the W320U and see if it sounds worth my time or not to bid on.

ARGH...okay, so I got my W7U today. It plays tapes, but I'm not happy at all.

The bad:

• More vertical jitter than some of my other decks...I'm getting jitter with a tape that never gave me any problems before.
• It has HORRIBLY blown out whites. They clip internally at a far lower level than any of my other decks, so I can't restore detail with a proc amp, and there's nothing I can do about it short of servicing the deck itself. Switching the TBC on/off doesn't seem to affect this at all.
• The deck also seems to shift the image a few lines to the right...it's nothing a wider capture window won't fix, but it's not ideal.

The good:

• Good, consistent detail with minimal haloing artifacts: It doesn't create any additional dark halos from what I can see, and the light halos are very limited. The sharpest setting of my AG1980 occasionally shows even more detail in a wood grain pattern I tested, but the W7U seems more consistent so far...except in bright parts, where everything is blown out and devoid of any detail whatsoever.
• Very good chroma denoising without any artifacts that I've noticed.
• I haven't tested the mono audio yet, but the stereo audio seems great.
• Minimal head-switching noise.

The interesting:

• The color output is very different from what I'm used to. I think I'd be likely to like it, but it's hard to judge, because the image is too blown out to properly assess the color.

My biggest problem by far is the white clipping. It makes the deck essentially useless. I'm trying to find a service manual (at least for the W5U if not the W7U) to see if it can be fixed, but so far I can only find the instruction manual and "Video Technical Guide." (The latter doesn't seem to be a full-fledged service manual as much as it's a rationale for the design decisions in the deck, including design details and circuit diagrams. I know an actual service manual - labeled "Service Manual" on the cover - exists though, because I've seen a front-page scan from a UK ebay auction for the W7U service manual.)

UPDATE:
More bad news: I decided to see whether output 2 looks better, and now the sound isn't working right on either output. It just sounds like a loud waterfall. I can't imagine what went wrong: I was very careful with the connectors, and I didn't pull them out or anything...although the rushing sound changes if I move the connector at all, so it may have to do with that issue after all. I'll check another cord in a moment...but even when the sound was working, I couldn't switch between mono and the various Hi-Fi modes...the VCR display changed, but the sound didn't.

There's a spot of hope though: I took the case off to see inside, and there's a bright orange thing connected to a circuit board on the left (looking at it from the front). It holds 3 "screw heads" inside that look like they're meant to be used as adjustment jobs for a flathead screwdriver, in addition to slots for a few more. On top of that, there are a full 15 more adjustment knobs in the back, though they're different in appearance (black/white plastic). The question is...what do each of them do? If one of them controls the contrast, I may be able to salvage this unit after all, aside from the jitter and potentially broken sound outputs. I don't want to just go turning the knobs willy-nilly though.

Side note: One of the three hinges on the right plastic side panel was broken when I took it off, and I don't think I did it...which is odd, considering the previous user claimed to buy it new (years ago) and wasn't knowledgeable enough about the unit to know about the TBC. I can't imagine he would have opened it himself. It's also dirty as heck inside. I'll definitely need to do some cleaning...

robjv1, I know you had attempted to repair one of your units through JVC. How did you contact them? I'm hoping they might be able to send me a service manual or something, so I know if any of the knobs will be useful to me. If so, you could likely use the same kind of contrast adjustment on one of your W5U's.

[robjv1]

Yikes! I don't get what is with these decks or how they get so destroyed (or so dirty!)

Can you post some shots of the blown out whites and a video of the jitter? I'm just trying to envision it. It's interesting that the TBC doesn't seem to impact it at all -- on both of of my decks turning the TBC off causes the gain to drop a bit (and a slight change in the hue as well).

The issue with the audio is a familiar one to me -- my first deck did something very similar, it ended up being a problem with a connection with one of the daughter boards that had become partially pulled out of place. It didn't produce the noise you are hearing, it was very low audio with noise for the most part, but when the sound would work it would do the same thing with the audio (mono, hi-fi left, hi-fi right, hi-fi both channels would change on the display but not in reality). If the layout is similar to the SR-W5U, it's likely the very longest board that sits near the back of the deck (it'll be metallic in appearance, the board is covered with a shielding case). It'll have two pieces of black foam rubber on either end of it. You could try putting just a little bit of downward pressure on both ends of it it during playback and see if that solves all the audio issues -- it may need be resoldered into place. I doubt it had anything to do with you pulling too hard -- especially since the SR-W7U is supposed to have fixed that from the SR-W5U. The deck is for sure a SR-W7U deck and has the BNC connectors, right?

Mine also has the orange thing with the adjustment screws in the same position, I've never played around with it obviously. I guess I actually have the SR-W5U "Technical" manual (70 pages) up on DigitalFaq.com in the manuals section that I uploaded. I went ahead and bought the SR-W320U service manual last night as well -- so you're welcome to that as well although I'm not sure how relevant it will be, but it's the only one that is a full fledged service manual with descriptions of how to service the deck. It's 294 pages. The SR-W5U tech manual is almost all schematics and diagrams and gives very little in the way of instructions -- basically exactly like the SR-W320U minus the service instructions. It looks like an actual Service Manual does exist (I've seen some images of physical copies, as well as some digital service bulletins) but I don't know where you could acquire a copy. I've never seen a SR-W7U manual.

I'll try messing around with the adjustments on the deck I have that is not working correctly in my closet and let ya know what I find. I might wait until you can procure a service manual to poke around with it to be on the safe side.

[robjv1]

By the way, as far as servicing, I forget how the process worked, I believe I tried getting in contact with the service center directly but had issues with that. Eventually I contacted customer service who transferred me to the pro department and got this phone # for them in California at phone # 714-229-8013. Hopefully that'll get you right through to them. I shipped my deck to them after completing the service form and after a couple of days it shows up in their system with status updates on the progress. Once it's been determined that repairs can be made, they'll give you a quote and ask you to accept or reject it on the site. They'll also call you (or at least they did in the past) to confirm.

This is the info I have saved on how I progressed through the process after I filled out the service form:

Ship to JVC at:

JVC SERVICE AND ENGINEERING
5665 CORPORATE AVENUE
CYPRESS, CA 90630 (800) 252-5722

Ship with only the unit. Nothing else.

Write a letter, with name, address, two phone #s, email addresses.

Name all the details of the problems.

Ship it UPS or Fed EX for tracking.

[Mini-Me]

Interestingly, my Hi-Fi audio daughter board doesn't have any foam anywhere near it. I pressed down on it just to see if it was out of place (along with other boards), and it didn't seem to be...but once I started playing tapes again, the audio was magically fixed. I haven't gotten it to act up again though: Go figure.

I came to a pretty embarrassing discovery though: I wasn't comparing the Hi-Fi audio of my various VCR's above at all...I was comparing their linear/mono playback, because it's looking like none of my family's camcorders even recorded in Hi-Fi audio! I've been monitoring with a cheap pair of headphones, and they have a bit of a channel imbalance I think in certain frequencies, and so it was fooling me into thinking I was hearing stereo for a bit. Since my tapes only seem to have a mono track altogether (bummer!), that offers another explanation for the audio controls changing only the W7U's display readout and not the actual sound. Either way: So far, my Sharp H993 and W7U seem to be giving pretty comparable mono output.

Anyway, most of the adjustment knobs on the inside (13 of them) are actually on what you've described as the Hi-Fi audio board. I'm not sure if they all relate to the audio, or if that's just a convenient access point. There are 2 on the board right in front of it (between the Hi-Fi audio board and the head drum), 3 in the orange thing on the left, 2 more further back on that same board, and 1 on the board next to it at the front (although the front controls are different on the W5U/W7U, so yours may differ). Finally, I found another orange one on the main board called "EE Level Adj" (maybe "EE Levels Adj" though - I'm writing from memory). I assume it affects the strength of edge enhancement, and I played with it for a few seconds, but the differences seem subtle at first sight, if the knob even works at all. EDIT: Derp. "EE" means "electric to electric." My best guess is it has to do with passthrough operation, which is why it's not affecting playback.

I actually got the confidence to turn a few knobs randomly, returning them to their original positions afterwards, but I couldn't get anything to noticeably change yet. It's a bit hard to access the ones on the left though...you need a really tiny tool, and I had to keep looking back and forth between the deck and the output, so I might have been changing something I didn't notice.

Quick note: My deck is definitely a W7U. It has the BNC inputs as well as the time code input/output, and it says W7 in a couple places on the front and W7U on the label in the back.

I'll see about getting some examples of blowout and jitter (along with a comparison to my AG2560, which handles things well in both categories), but I'll need to find the right section: I want to avoid putting videos of family members and stuff up on the net, so I'll have to search carefully for sections I can post.

BTW, thank you for the service center contact info: I'll try giving them a call on Monday. I'm more looking for a service manual and a few quick tips rather than an invitation to a $700 service bill, but we'll see.

[robjv1]

Interestingly, my Hi-Fi audio daughter board doesn't have any foam anywhere near it. I pressed down on it just to see if it was out of place (along with other boards), and it didn't seem to be...but once I started playing tapes again, the audio was magically fixed. I haven't gotten it to act up again though: Go figure.

If you were to take a flashlight and look closely, do you see any remnants of the foam on the boards? It would look like a black square outline on either end of the board and also above the cassette assembly. How about on the underside of the cover, any black marks? Maybe they ditched it with the SR-W7U.

I came to a pretty embarrassing discovery though: I wasn't comparing the Hi-Fi audio of my various VCR's above at all...I was comparing their linear/mono playback, because it's looking like none of my family's camcorders even recorded in Hi-Fi audio! I've been monitoring with a cheap pair of headphones, and they have a bit of a channel imbalance I think in certain frequencies, and so it was fooling me into thinking I was hearing stereo for a bit. Since my tapes only seem to have a mono track altogether (bummer!), that offers another explanation for the audio controls changing only the W7U's display readout and not the actual sound. Either way: So far, my Sharp H993 and W7U seem to be giving pretty comparable mono output.

Are you a 100% sure about that regarding those tapes not having Hi-Fi sound? Perhaps test one on another deck to verify. The only thing that stood out to me here (and I suppose the SR-W7U could behave differently) is that on both of my SR-W5U decks, when a tape is playing back that has only a mono/linear track pressing either the Hi-Fi audio select button or the Audio Out Select button causes no change to the front display.

Anyway, most of the adjustment knobs on the inside (13 of them) are actually on what you've described as the Hi-Fi audio board. I'm not sure if they all relate to the audio, or if that's just a convenient access point. There are 2 on the board right in front of it (between the Hi-Fi audio board and the head drum) and 3 in the orange thing on the left. Finally, I found another orange one on the main board called "EE Level Adj" (maybe "EE Levels Adj" though - I'm writing from memory). I assume it affects the strength of edge enhancement, and I played with it for a few seconds, but the differences seem subtle at first sight, if the knob even works at all.

Oh alright, I see those ones now as well (the black and white ones) -- on my decks most of the ones running along that board are covered up by the aforementioned foam rubber pieces.

I hope everything works out! Let me know if you have to pay for a service manual, I'd like to kick some $$ towards it to get a copy myself.

[Mini-Me]

If you were to take a flashlight and look closely, do you see any remnants of the foam on the boards? It would look like a black square outline on either end of the board and also above the cassette assembly. How about on the underside of the cover, any black marks? Maybe they ditched it with the SR-W7U.

There is a small piece of foam on top of the leftmost board (with the orange strip containing knobs), and there's a large strip of foam over the cassette cage. This foam has "stained" the inside of the case cover, but I don't see any similar stains anywhere else except a marking from a ribbon cable in the back-left (the cable itself seems intact). I don't know if it would even be possible to put foam directly on top of the Hi-Fi board in the W7U: There's another board in the back, laying horizontally at the top across most of the width of the machine, which partially (barely) overlaps the Hi-Fi board. Is this board present on the W5U?

Are you a 100% sure about that regarding those tapes not having Hi-Fi sound? Perhaps test one on another deck to verify. The only thing that stood out to me here (and I suppose the SR-W7U could behave differently) is that on both of my SR-W5U decks, when a tape is playing back that has only a mono/linear track pressing either the Hi-Fi audio select button or the Audio Out Select button causes no change to the front display.

I was checking multiple captures from my W7U, AG1980, AG2560, and Sharp H993. They all seem to have the same sound track, and VLCPlayer's audio visualizations show that the left/right channels are virtually identical for each capture. It made me a little sad for my tapes but happy for the condition of my W7U (because at least I can't say the sound is broken ).

I should clarify about the front display too: If I press the buttons during playback, the display doesn't change. It only changes if I stop playback and then mess with the audio settings...so that's probably consistent with your experience with mono tapes.

Oh alright, I see those ones now as well (the black and white ones) -- on my decks most of the ones running along that board are covered up by the aforementioned foam rubber pieces.

I hope everything works out! Let me know if you have to pay for a service manual, I'd like to kick some $$ towards it to get a copy myself.

Thanks! I'll let you know...hopefully the JVC techs will be in a charitable mood though. It's a shame these manuals are so hard to come by. For a deck with so many apparent adjustments on the inside, I'd be very disappointed if you couldn't change the contrast/gain (especially since it's a necessity for me)...but we'll see.

EDIT: Just noticed...my W7U's image isn't shifted right, so much as the first few columns on the left are masked out by black. Really strong chroma can show through though, particularly blue. Does your deck do this? EDIT: This masking only occurs with the TBC on. Hopefully it's adjustable...

[videeo]

So... When I setup the ES20 for pass-through are there any settings I should look out for? I haven't used a DVD recorder before...

I'll be connecting via composite output on the VCR to the ES20 (rear input). Then s-video output on the ES20 to the capture card.

Anything I should look out for on the capture card settings (Diamond ATI 750 HD USB)?