how do I keep my PC's from burning out the 1394 ports on my cameras?

[BirdDaddie]

I've tried chipsets from both TI and VIA and they both burn out my ports if I don't do it in correct order.
So what is the order of hookup for transferring Digital8 or mini DV so that I don't fry the new cameras that I have coming to me?
I can't remember if I am supposed to have my cam turned to off and connect to an off PC and then turn it on once the PC is booted up or what. Sof far I have ruined the DV ports on five cams.

[hech54]

I've tried chipsets from both TI and VIA and they both burn out my ports if I don't do it in correct order.
So what is the order of hookup for transferring Digital8 or mini DV so that I don't fry the new cameras that I have coming to me?
I can't remember if I am supposed to have my cam turned to off and connect to an off PC and then turn it on once the PC is booted up or what. Sof far I have ruined the DV ports on five cams.

Never heard of such a thing.

[BirdDaddie]

they still play and record onto tape but they are useless for firewire from then on.

[Bjs]

We always recommend and use the following link for safety

This has never caused problems for our equipment.

In case of dead link:

When connecting your unit(s)


- Ensure that the Computer is turned OFF

- Ensure that the device is turned OFF

- Connect your device

- Turn ON your device

- Turn ON your Computer

- Turn ON your Monitor Speakers


When disconnecting your unit(s)


- Shut down control software

- Turn OFF your Monitor Speakers

- Turn OFF your device

- Disconnect your device

[BirdDaddie]

Thanks

[pippas]

IEEE1394 (aka Firewire) connections are often described as 'hot swappable'... i.e. it should be OK to connect or disconnect Firewire cables with the equipment switched on....In reality, it's not OK!

DON'T EVER connect or disconnect a Firewire connection with the equipment at either end of the cable switched on. We've probably all done it in the past, and for the most part you get away with it. If you've had no problems doing it so far...you've been lucky!

If you are unlucky, you can suffer from a 'late Vg event' which can and will destroy the Firewire hardware components in your camcorder (and/or computer).

For those interested in the technical aspects, THIS PDF from TI is very useful.......some of the photos are pretty scary!

Replacing damaged Firewire ports usually means a complete main pcb replacement.... and that can be very expensive (only rarely are Firewire components included on separate 'plug in' pcbs).

[ackboo]

Wow, I had no idea I was living that dangerously. So far I think my camera was always turned off when I connected the firewire cable. I checked the camcorder's manual, there is no warning whatsoever. However my firewire card manual says that it is compliant with IEEE 1394-1995, 1394a-2000 and OHCI 1.1. It also says that there is an hot swapping feature. I didn't connect the onboard power supply though. It is an STLAB F-360 with a VIA chipset. What brands of firewire cards did you use so far, and does the manual says anything about standards compliance or hot swapping ?

edit : According to the TI pdf a late Vg event can only happen on a 6 pin cable. Because there is no power and ground cable on a 4 pin cable. What type of firewire cable did you use ?

AFAK camcorders only use 4 pin firewire connectors, so this doesn't make much sense. Did you try several firewire cables?
Is the ground connection of your home's electrical system ok?

[aedipuss]

the damage to firewire ports is almost always physical. cameras use 4 wire ports with NO power connections and can not be "shorted out". the jack on the board is only soldiered on and easily broken by any flexing of the cable while inserted.

been in business since 2002 transferring tapes and have never lost a firewire port, other than an internal cable becoming disconnected. we hot plug all the time with everything on.

[pippas]

...we hot plug all the time with everything on.

You've been one of the lucky ones then......

Unlike USB of SD card connectors, Firewire plug and socket 'offsets' are miniscule by comparison. It's all too easy to create a 'late vg' type event as described in the TI paper I linked to. And a 'late vg event' usually means an expensive repair...

Firewire is supposed to be hot swappable. From the number of failures I've seen described from many sources over the years, I take that claim with a large pinch of salt....

[pippas]

According to the TI pdf a late Vg event can only happen on a 6 pin cable. Because there is no power and ground cable on a 4 pin cable.

I think it's fair to say that a true 'late Vg event' as described by TI is not possible with a 4 pin cable, as there is no Vp pin.
But there is still a ground pin (the shield) and so damage is still possible.
It can also be be static damage, rather than a high current routing problems with 4 wire ports, but there have been many reports of 'fried' Firewire ports over the years, nearly all as a result of hot swapping - or so it seems.

Both Sony and Panasonic have advised connecting the cable to the computer first, then to the camcorder.... and then switching both on.
Whether that advice was presented as a separate paper, or just included in owners manuals I'm not sure, but I've seen it referred to several times.

I've only ever lost one camcorder Firewire port myself --a good few years ago now -- but I've never 'hot swapped' since.....

[ackboo]

I had no idea firewire could have that defect, this is a welcomed heads up. That being said you can't have a late Vg event on a connector with no Vg pin to be late and no Vp pin to transmit electricity.
So I believe there is something else at play here. Defective cable, cheap FW cards, defective PC power supply, no grounding at the wall socket ....
Those five busted camcorders have a problem in common, it can't be the 4 pin connector.

edit: following the safety procedure should limit the chances of another busted camcorder but I would advise to investigate other hardware problems first. And check for static electricity as well.

[pippas]

That being said you can't have a late Vg event on a connector with no Vg pin to be late and no Vp pin to transmit electricity.
So I believe there is something else at play here. Defective cable, cheap FW cards, defective PC power supply, no grounding at the wall socket ....

I agree, it can't be an orthodox 'late Vg event' as described in the TI paper, as there is no Vp pin.
But the connector 'shield' at the 4 pin end of the Firewire cable is connected to Vg. (Pin 2 at the 6 wire end). So there is a Vg reference for the data pins. Although the data is differential, I don't think its galvanically isolated, so there is a return path to ground, referenced to the 6 wire end. (The 6 wire connector shield is not connected to the 4 pin connector shield).

I think the issue may often be related to static damage in many cases, but with such a poor quality connector - especially at the 4 pin end - the variations are probably several.

It could be related to the leakage current from the camcorder PSU, where that is used instead of batteries during transfer.

Those devices are often ungrounded switch mode units, and although the leakage current from those is only in the order of uA, it can give you quite a 'sting' if you grab the negative ('ground') side of the output while connected to ground. Certainly enough leakage to cause damage to sensitive electronics....

[ackboo]

I took a look at the pinout :
http://hardwarebook.info/IEEE1394

The 6 pin connector Vg is connected to the inner cable shield and the ground return.
The 4 pin connector is only connected to the outer cable shield

So I guess the safer option is a 4pin to 4pin cable and following the safety procedure. There is not much you can do for the camcorder's psu.

[pippas]

The 6 pin connector Vg is connected to the inner cable shield and the ground return.
The 4 pin connector is only connected to the outer cable shield

I can see that is how it is supposed to be configured...

I have found that the attached schematic seems to be nearer the mark . Certainly, that schematic is how my own Firewire 4 to 6 cable is connected...

(That is the external cable screen to the 6 pin connector 'shroud', and the internal cable screens to pin 2 of the 6 way connector (Vg), and the connector 'shroud' at the 4 pin end.)

Hence my comment about a Vg reference...

[ackboo]

Ok, got it. English is a second language to me.
Any thoughts on the use of a 4pin to 4pin cable ?

[pippas]

Any thoughts on the use of a 4pin to 4pin cable ?

I've never seen a 4 pin input on a PC Firewire card, only on a camcorder, so I don't have any experience of using 4 wire to 4 wire as such.
I do have an (unused) 4 wire to 4 wire lead, and the connector 'shrouds' are connected to at least one of the cable screen at both ends, as you would expect. Whether both the internal and external cable screens are both connected I have no way of knowing, without destroying the cable...

I bought that as an extension lead, but never used it. Whether there are any actual 4 wire inputs on Firewire cards, I wouldn't know?...as I say, I've never come across one.