HD DVD Recording

[wg_rebel]

I want to record in HD on an DVD; at least in 480p, 720p would be better.. I can find lots of DVD that have 720p Output, but the same machine will only have Composite or Composite with S-VHS Input.. Where can I find some Commercial or Pro machine that I might be able 2 afford??
I don't want to use my computer to do this but I will if that's my only choice.. How do U know what resolution the DVD Recorder in an computer is recording??

[DB83]

The short answer is that you can not do that.

A DVD recorder is a SD device. You can get a HD recorder and store the recordings on the HDD of the recorder. You could even dub those recordings in to a DVD if that recorder has the appropiate output connectors. But you will then end up with a SD recording on the DVD disk.

If you want a HD recording on a disk you would have to dub that recording on to a blu-ray disk

[jjeff]

The "DVD" standard is 480i, any standalone DVD player will only play 480i. That said if you use a computer and a BR burner(if you lived in Europe/Asia, basically anywhere other than N. America you could use a HD standalone but not here) you could record a non standard DVD format called AVCHD to record HD on DVD. Those non standard HD DVD discs would only play on BR players and expect ~1hr capacity. There are also other HD on DVD formats but again none will play on a standard DVD player.

[jagabo]

Hollywood has this completely sewn up. There are no HD recorders that record on plastic discs.

[Cornucopia]

Also note:
If I took my little icon avatar and blew it up to full screen, it might have more pixels, but it DOES NOT have more resolution. In fact, it "seems" to have less resolution.
That is what your DVD player(s) is doing. Standard Def is being blown up to fit 720p (or even 1080i/p). Doesn't make it better, just makes it bigger.

Now, you might need to be blowing it up anyway if your TV is an HD TV. Then you can choose WHICH method is the best method of blowing it up (aka "upscaling") - In software on the file? In hardware on the DVD player? or in hardware on the TV?
There are many methods out there and some are much better than others (depending on the program, the cost of the hardware, the time involved, etc).

What do you want to record in HD?
1 - camcorder stuff? 2 - TV broadcasts? 3 - Rips from BD? 4 - what else?
#1 - your camcorder is your recorder. You just need to capture & convert (usually done on a PC)
#2 - A Tivo, etc or an HTPC can do that (if the shows aren't encrypted). Getting it to DVD is harder (unless you have an HTPC and the right combo of apps)
#3 - If you own the BD, there are plenty of apps on this site devoted to getting BD->DVD, but unless you go the aformentioned AVCHD route, or maybe HD DivX, none will be in HD and playable on a DVD player.
#4 - You tell me...

Scott

[usually_quiet]

The reason such things as BD or AVCHD recorders for TV do not exist is there is negligible demand for them in the USA at the price they need to sell for. Look at DVD recorders. They have done so poorly in the USA that only a few models are still made, and almost all must be ordered online because few brick and mortar can afford to devote shelf space to them.

There is nothing legally preventing the manufacture of a BD recorder for over-the-air use in the USA. Everything sent over-the-air is required not to have any copy protection flags activated. Programming that is only availble from a paid TV source is the only TV that FCC regulations permit to be copy-protected.

Other places in the world also allow paid TV to be copy protected, and require recording devices to obey copy protection flags, but fewer people outside the US have these services, so the demand for third-party recording devices is stronger. ...and people are willing to pay more for them. People elsewhere are also more interested in saving TV shows on optical media than are residents of the USA.

A TiVo HD allows recordings that are not copy protected to be exported to a PC, where they can be burned to DVD as an AVCHD disc or to recordable BD media. There are HD capture devices for the PC as well. BD and AVCHD recorders for videography do exist, for those who do not like using a PC with their camera, but are not inexpensive, and won't work for TV. Sony makes a DVD recorder for videography that can record the output from Sony camcorders to AVCHD discs for about $160.

[yoda313]

I don't believe the hauppauge hd pvr has been mentioned yet. It is not a standalone disc recorder but it connects to a computer and can record high definition (up to 1080i) and 5.1 surround (ac3 only and aac 2.0) via fiberoptic (plus rca and svideo inputs).

Its limited to component input for high definition recording so the source device must have component outputs to record in high def (otherwise it will be letterboxed 480i).

This is limited in that component will be phased out eventually. I don't know the timing of it as its part of the analog phase out that is underway and will be completed sometime in the relatively near future - you'll have to google for specifics.

But assuming your cable/sat/fios box outputs component you can capture to h264 with 5.1 in widescreen. It works great I have one and it is very good. It records into either mp4, m2ts, or ts files - the video itself is h264.

This is basically your main alternative aside from the tivo hd as usually_quiet mentioned. BUT the Hauppauge hd pvr will record ANYTHING that is outputted from the component output. As long as you can see it you can record it. Again up until cable sat fios companies start shutting down component outputs or eliminating them from newer boxes altogether.

--------------------------

One side note - these days releases to dvd or bluray are about the shortest they've ever been. So as long as what you want to watch is of a relatively high popularity or high "cult" status you will get a disc release in the relatively near future. Of course you have to pay for it but you won't have to worry about it never being released. TV studios want to make money anyway they can.

Of course things like special live events or certain documentaries and the like may not make it to disc or would take awhile to get a special box set released.

Edit - isn't there a bluray disc recorder that is out in Japan? I don't know if it would work in the US. I know Japan is NTSC like the US but I don't know about the recording world. Would you be able to import Japanese bluray recordables and record that way? Assuming you could read Japanese that is.

- again that would depend on the input jacks that the Japanese bluray recorder has - if it only records hdmi it might not work at all on encrypted cable/sat/fios boxes.

[MCnDaHouse]

The internal version of that Hauppauge PVR does HDMI input. I am considering getting one of those.

Hauppauge Colossus PCI Express Internal HD-PVR
http://www.amazon.com/Hauppauge-Colossus-Express-Internal-HD-PVR/dp/B004OVE2B4/ref=sr_...4664207&sr=8-3

It's a shame we can't get a way to record HD to a disc like we can SD on the old Pioneer/Panasonic/Magnavox, etc DVRs.

MC

[jagabo]

The internal version of that Hauppauge PVR does HDMI input. I am considering getting one of those.

Hauppauge Colossus PCI Express Internal HD-PVR
http://www.amazon.com/Hauppauge-Colossus-Express-Internal-HD-PVR/dp/B004OVE2B4/ref=sr_...4664207&sr=8-3

But what are you going to record? Almost all HDMI content is HDCP protected -- the Colossus won't record that.

[MCnDaHouse]

What about sporting events off Network TV and ESPN? My mother loves Christmas specials and such that are shown on network TV and TNT/TBS and such. Are those copy protected?

If they are this may nix that idea unless I use the component input.

[usually_quiet]

What about sporting events off Network TV and ESPN? My mother loves Christmas specials and such that are shown on network TV and TNT/TBS and such. Are those copy protected?

If they are this may nix that idea unless I use the component input.

TV from over-the-air stations is not supposed to be copy protected, although it is possible an HD cable box would still apply HDCP to its HDMI output regardless. Copy protection is allowed for TNT, TBS, and any other paid-TV-only channel, and on-demand programming.

There are HDCP strippers (using HDMI for both input and output), but they are hard to get and expensive ($300 or more). They have to be ordered from an overseas source, since its illegal to sell them in the US.

Recording component video would be simpler and less expensive.

[MCnDaHouse]

Well based on experience with the cable box I have already found that even non-component has protection flags on some channels such as Encore. I recorded a movie from the Cable HD DVR (recorded off Encore). I played the movie back and recorded it via S-video to my pioneer DVR-531. It recorded fine but when I went to save it off to DVD it told me that it was copy protected and refused to do it.

[intracube]

TV from over-the-air stations is not supposed to be copy protected, although it is possible an HD cable box would still apply HDCP to its HDMI output regardless.

What about satellite broadcasts - are the main channels broadcast unencrypted?

Perhaps use a computer satellite tuner card to record the broadcasts?

[usually_quiet]

TV from over-the-air stations is not supposed to be copy protected, although it is possible an HD cable box would still apply HDCP to its HDMI output regardless.

What about satellite broadcasts - are the main channels broadcast unencrypted?

Perhaps use a computer satellite tuner card to record the broadcasts?

Free satellite service doesn't exist in the US. We have to have a satellite receiver from the service to which we subscribe to watch because the signals are encrypted. No satellite tuner card is available to use for these services.

Some people do listen in on unencrypted broadcasts originating from certain satellites used by the major over-the-air networks, and a few cable stations, but it isn't really like having satellite service. Not everything a paid service can provide will be available that way.

[usually_quiet]

Well based on experience with the cable box I have already found that even non-component has protection flags on some channels such as Encore. I recorded a movie from the Cable HD DVR (recorded off Encore). I played the movie back and recorded it via S-video to my pioneer DVR-531. It recorded fine but when I went to save it off to DVD it told me that it was copy protected and refused to do it.

The Hauppage HD PVR 1212 reportedly ignores analog copy protection flags. I don't know about the Colossus.

[intracube]

Free satellite service doesn't exist in the US. We have to have a satellite receiver from the service to which we subscribe to watch because the signals are encrypted.

Is terrestrial digital also encrypted?

[jagabo]

Is terrestrial digital also encrypted?

Over the air broadcast is not encrypted in the USA. But your cable cable box may still require HDCP at the HDMI port. Of course, it has nothing to do with the fact that the cable company wants you to rent a PVR from them...

[Chopmeister]

Buy an HDMI->Component converter that will do the HDCP handshaking and spit out unprotected HD component video, use this stream to feed the HD PVR 1212. This is what I am doing, and it works quite well (albeit only up to 1080i). HD Fury is a popular option and is what I use, Amazon UK also sells a box that I understand works OK.

[intracube]

Is terrestrial digital also encrypted?

Over the air broadcast is not encrypted in the USA. But your cable cable box may still require HDCP at the HDMI port.

I was thinking about a 'generic' over the air PCI(e) tuner card - an ATSC equivalent of a DVB-T2 card. One that doesn't force you to use proprietary software/drivers which honour the broadcast flags.

Of course, it has nothing to do with the fact that the cable company wants you to rent a PVR from them...

Let me guess, they want you to pay a monthly subscription (on top of the main sub.) just to use the PVR function?

[jagabo]

Is terrestrial digital also encrypted?

Over the air broadcast is not encrypted in the USA. But your cable cable box may still require HDCP at the HDMI port.

I was thinking about a 'generic' over the air PCI(e) tuner card - an ATSC equivalent of a DVB-T2 card. One that doesn't force you to use proprietary software/drivers which honour the broadcast flags.

Yes, all OTA broadcast in the USA is unencrypted and free of any copy protection. Any device with an ATSC tuner can view and capture (download) digital OTA broadcast.

Of course, it has nothing to do with the fact that the cable company wants you to rent a PVR from them...

Let me guess, they want you to pay a monthly subscription (on top of the main sub.) just to use the PVR function?

Yes. There's no legal requirement for them to provide local OTA channels via HDMI without HDCP. And they want you to pay more for PVR capability. So there's no incentive for them to do it.

[intracube]

Is terrestrial digital also encrypted?

Over the air broadcast is not encrypted in the USA. But your cable cable box may still require HDCP at the HDMI port.

I was thinking about a 'generic' over the air PCI(e) tuner card - an ATSC equivalent of a DVB-T2 card. One that doesn't force you to use proprietary software/drivers which honour the broadcast flags.

Yes, all OTA broadcast in the USA is unencrypted and free of any copy protection. Any device with an ATSC tuner can view and capture (download) digital OTA broadcast.

So, one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/Hauppauge-1196-WinTV-HVR-1250-PCI--Tuner/dp/B0014YFC18/
http://www.amazon.com/AVerMedia-AVerTV-Express-Profile-Tuner/dp/B005BETEI4/

would allow you to record the stream to a computer - Unless Hauppauge and AVerMedia are in bed with the studios, and save the streams to disk in an encrypted format...

Then it should be straightforward to convert/burn the video onto a Bluray disc or a non-standard DVD.

Of course, it has nothing to do with the fact that the cable company wants you to rent a PVR from them...

Let me guess, they want you to pay a monthly subscription (on top of the main sub.) just to use the PVR function?

Yes. There's no legal requirement for them to provide local OTA channels via HDMI without HDCP. And they want you to pay more for PVR capability. So there's no incentive for them to do it.

I'm surprised by public's apathy to this. If you turned the clocks back to the 90s and tried to sell a VHS machine which only continued to work as long as you sent off cheques to Sony or Panasonic every month, most people would balk.

It's protection money.

<comcast>Nice PVR, nice PVR... wouldn't wanna see anything happen to it...</comcast>

BSkyB are no better.

[usually_quiet]

I'm surprised by public's apathy to this. If you turned the clocks back to the 90s and tried to sell a VHS machine which only continued to work as long as you sent off cheques to Sony or Panasonic every month, most people would balk.

It's protection money.

<comcast>Nice PVR, nice PVR... wouldn't wanna see anything happen to it...</comcast>

BSkyB are no better.

The FCC (Federal Communications Commission), which regulates cable TV and over-the-air TV in the US, periodically attempts to force cable providers to use an interface of some kind which permits 3rd party recording devices to function in a digital cable system that encrypts most channels. ...but the cable TV industry spends an enormous amount of money fighting every attempt to bring 3rd party devices back into general use for recording cable TV.

The CableCARD is one such interface and it has largely been a failure. With the exception of digital cable tuners, Moxis, and TiVos, no recording devices use them. Tru2Way, the successor to the CableCARD, has been an even bigger failure. There are no recording devices that use it, and after test-marketing a Tru2Way TV in a few cities, Panasonic abandoned development. The current proposal is called "All-vid," and it is currently going nowhere.

[edDV]

First the Japanese HD Blu-Ray record their off air signal that isn't ATSC. Forget Japan but look to Korea which does use ATSC for broadcast and tuners.

What about sporting events off Network TV and ESPN? My mother loves Christmas specials and such that are shown on network TV and TNT/TBS and such. Are those copy protected?

If they are this may nix that idea unless I use the component input.

1. There are many OTA ATSC tuner cards for PC and Mac.

2. Most of those also record unscrambled cable QAM encoded channels directly.

3. For the time being, HD cable boxes* are required to output the tuned channel to MPeg2_TS for certain channels. These include PBS and "Must Carry" TV stations. But many cable systems output far more channels over IEEE-1394. This varies cable system to cable system. What I also like about IEEE-1394 is when the channel in question is broadcasting 1280x720p/60 (e.g. abc/fox/espn/disney/etc.), that is what appears on the IEEE-1394 port. ABC/ESPN/Fox sports in particular look great at 60p. In my area, all PBS is also at 720p60.

4. There are the analog component recorders like the Hauppauge HD-PVR and Colossus that record 1908i/720p/480p Y,Pb,Pr.

All of the above are 100% legal in the USA.

* make sure the HD cable box you rent has an IEEE-1394 port even if it is an old one.

[jagabo]

For the OP:

1. There are many OTA ATSC tuner cards for PC and Mac.

2. Most of those also record unscrambled cable QAM encoded channels directly.

On most cable systems that will be limited to your local over-the-air broadcast channels and a handful of others like CSPAN, the local cable access channel, a shopping channel or two) . ESPN will almost certainly not be included.

3. For the time being, HD cable boxes* are required to output the tuned channel to MPeg2_TS for certain channels. These include PBS and "Must Carry" TV stations.

edDV is talking specifically about firewire (ieee 1394) output, not HDMI output. Not all boxes have a firewire port. And even when they do it's often not active.

On my cable PVR box the firewire port is active but appears to be encrypted (all channels) when watching live TV. At least I haven't found any software that can make anything of the data, and hex dumps don't look like an MPEG transport stream. When watching standard definition recordings the firewire port is unencrypted and I have no problems capturing from it. When watching HD recordings the data is unencrypted but has a lot of corruption. Every 5 to 10 seconds the picture breaks up.

[edDV]

3. For the time being, HD cable boxes* are required to output the tuned channel to MPeg2_TS for certain channels. These include PBS and "Must Carry" TV stations.

edDV is talking specifically about firewire (ieee 1394) output, not HDMI output. Not all boxes have a firewire port. And even when they do it's often not active.

On my cable PVR box the firewire port is active but appears to be encrypted (all channels) when watching live TV. At least I haven't found any software that can make anything of the data, and hex dumps don't look like an MPEG transport stream. When watching standard definition recordings the firewire port is unencrypted and I have no problems capturing from it. When watching HD recordings the data is unencrypted but has a lot of corruption. Every 5 to 10 seconds the picture breaks up.

It all varies by your local cable system's firmware settings. My old Motorola 6200 box has most HD channels open over IEEE-1394. I Just tested the sports channels making a short recording of each. All were open over IEEE-1394 and recorded to normal MPeg2 TS. All these worked

Comcast Sportsnet
Versus
ESPN HD 1
ESPN HD 2
ESPNews HD
NBA HD
NHL HD
MLB HD
NFL HD
CBSSPT HD

Also checked the 4 Disney channels and all were open. Also Encore, MGM and the other movie channels.

The ones that definitely don't work are the Premium channels (HBO, etc.) and VOD ("OnDemand").

[edDV]

FYI - Here is the mediainfo data for ESPN2 over IEEE-1394. Note the 720p @59.94 fps. Also the 17.1 video bit rate. That is high quality.

General
ID : 1 (0x1)
Complete name : T:\0t_move\ESPN2 111226105056.ts
Format : MPEG-TS
File size : 16.8 MiB
Duration : 7s 528ms
Overall bit rate : 18.5 Mbps

Video
ID : 1984 (0x7C0)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@High
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=15
Codec ID : 2
Duration : 7s 524ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 17.1 Mbps
Nominal bit rate : 25.0 Mbps
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 59.940 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.310
Stream size : 15.4 MiB (91%)

Audio
ID : 1985 (0x7C1)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Codec ID : 129
Duration : 7s 488ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 448 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Delay relative to video : -216ms
Stream size : 410 KiB (2%)
Language : English
Language, more info : Clean effects

Text #1
ID : 1984 (0x7C0)608-1
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : EIA-608
Muxing mode : A/53 / DTVCC Transport
Muxing mode, more info : Muxed in Video #1
Duration : 7s 524ms
Stream size : 0.00 Byte (0%)

Text #2
ID : 1984 (0x7C0)1
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : EIA-708
Muxing mode : A/53 / DTVCC Transport
Muxing mode, more info : Muxed in Video #1
Duration : 7s 524ms
Stream size : 0.00 Byte (0%)

[yoda313]

@eddv - you better delete your posts. Your cable company will be coming shortly to repo your box to stop you!

[jagabo]

@eddv - you better delete your posts. Your cable company will be coming shortly to repo your box to stop you!

Yeah, I agree!

[edDV]

Been this way since I first got HD service despite several changes in plans.

Both my HD boxes pass the IEEE-1394.

[ledishis]

if you would like a dvd player from elta8847 wit hdmi output @69$ please message me.