Uncompressed Mov - Lossless Codec ?

[PowerFalcon]

Can the NIKON D7100 DIGITAL SLR record uncompressed QuickTime MOV, as I'm looking for a close to a lossless CODEC such as ProRes without it actually being ProRes ?

[poisondeathray]

The next most commonly used near lossless one would be dnxhd . Both require an external HDMI recorder - you can't do this internally

[PowerFalcon]

I don't want any external hardware, I'm only renting the equipment.

[poisondeathray]

I don't want any external hardware, I'm only renting the equipment.

You can rent external recorders


IIRC, there are Nikon firmware hacks to increase the internal bitrate recording on some models, like Panasonic GH2/3/4 hacks , but you can't/shouldn't do that with a rental

[PowerFalcon]

I don't know where I rent if I can rent external recorders; either way, I don't want the added cost.

[poisondeathray]

You can rent them at most pro video camera shops. There aren't as many in Canada as USA, but you can still find them

If you don't want to pay more, you're stuck with the original compression (original compression not very good, but that D7100 isn't very good for video in the first place - very soft, lots of aliasing - an external recorder doesn't help with those deficiencies)

[PowerFalcon]

Do you have any suggestions for cameras that I may be able to render at a good price with a lossless codec ?

[poisondeathray]

Do you have any suggestions for cameras that I may be able to render at a good price with a lossless codec ?

No

None for true lossless at a low price range. You need an external recorder to record uncompressed HDMI (e.g. blackmagic shuttle)

You have to pay for external recorder if you want something less compressed prores/dnxhd e.g. Atomos Ninja 2 is a popular lower cost model - those aren't true lossless, but close. Not all cameras have a clean HDMI out - so do your research first

You can record RAW with some Canons with the Magic Lantern Hack - but you don't want to be hacking a rental, you might end up buying it.

The best bang for buck image quality with internal recording is the GH2, even today. It was the "king" of low budget / indy filmmaking several years ago, but still is very popular. You can find used ones for cheap. The hacked version can record >150Mbps if you have fast enough cards. Very low aliasing, very clean image comparable to much more expensive cameras. The internal h264 compression is more advanced than the D7100 (The D7100 uses the baseline, no cabac, so even if the image was better, the compression would limit it)

[PowerFalcon]

I read the GH2 does Movies: MPEG-4 AVCHD ?

[poisondeathray]

I read the GH2 does Movies: MPEG-4 AVCHD ?

Yes, it's AVCHD, and even at ~1/2 the bitrate it looks better than the compression that the D7100 uses . The D7100 uses the same recording module as most Canon DSLR's - baseline profile ~40Mbps it's very mushy compression. The GH2 stock internal recording is a bit soft in the shadows / darker tones, but the hacked GH2 higher bitrates fixes that.

Even GH2 internal compressed vs D7100 + external recorder, GH2 wins hands down for video (stills/photography is a different story - D7100 is better) . When you record uncompressed or near lossless, you just record the signal that is given to the recorder. If the signal is full of aliasing artifacts, poor quality - you record the poor quality more faithfully. It doesn't magically make it better than the original signal. If you have signal that is garbage, you just record the garbage more clearly without the compression artifacts - it's still garbage. (I'm not saying the D7100 image quality is garbage - it's just an analogy)

Just look at some comparisons and articles. There were lots of "shootouts" done in the past . The hacked GH2 produces very nice image for the price - easily as good as cameras 3-4x times the price - that's why it was (and maybe still is) the budget "king"

[PowerFalcon]

I'll go ahead with the GH2, if as you say, the quality is close to that of uncompressed for the price. I hope to find one I can rent.

[poisondeathray]

I'll go ahead with the GH2, if as you say, the quality is close to that of uncompressed for the price. I hope to find one I can rent.

I have a feeling you didn't understand what I was saying or it went over your head

When you record uncompressed it just means there will be no additional artifacts from compression. The artifacts that were there from sensor, or processing etc.. are still there. The quality is dependent on what you feed it. Recording uncompressed doesn't necessarily mean the quality will be good. If the limiting factor is sensor or sampling or processing, recording uncompressed is just a waste producing lower image quality

I'm saying the internal GH2 compression image quality is good overall for the price - but it still has compression problems (eg. softer, noisy blacks). That's why people use the GH2 hack to overcome the compression problems. But even with the compression problems the overall image is much better than say D7100 recording uncompressed. Recording uncompressed on the D7100 does NOT overcome the problems with the sensor sampling or line skipping - thus it's a complete waste in that scenario

What people do now is record UHD/4K cheaply and downsample and process/denoise to 1080p - that is the way to get almost perfect 1080p . Oversampling has huge benefits. (at least in terms of effective resolution and noise, not in terms of other characteristics like dynamic range)

[PowerFalcon]

I understood perfectly what you meant I was interested in a 4K camera, decided to stick with 1080p, there is the blackmagic pocket camera to which the quality is suppose to be good.

I'll go ahead with the GH2, if as you say, the quality is close to that of uncompressed for the price. I hope to find one I can rent.

I have a feeling you didn't understand what I was saying or it went over your head

When you record uncompressed it just means there will be no additional artifacts from compression. The artifacts that were there from sensor, or processing etc.. are still there. The quality is dependent on what you feed it. Recording uncompressed doesn't necessarily mean the quality will be good. If the limiting factor is sensor or sampling or processing, recording uncompressed is just a waste producing lower image quality

I'm saying the internal GH2 compression image quality is good overall for the price - but it still has compression problems (eg. softer, noisy blacks). That's why people use the GH2 hack to overcome the compression problems. But even with the compression problems the overall image is much better than say D7100 recording uncompressed. Recording uncompressed on the D7100 does NOT overcome the problems with the sensor sampling or line skipping - thus it's a complete waste in that scenario

What people do now is record UHD/4K cheaply and downsample and process/denoise to 1080p - that is the way to get almost perfect 1080p . Oversampling has huge benefits. (at least in terms of effective resolution and noise, not in terms of other characteristics like dynamic range)

[aedipuss]

the newer canon dslr 70D does all i-frame avc @ 90mbs with autofocus during video recording if you need that.

[PowerFalcon]

Sorry, what is i-frame avc, never heard of it ?

My goal is to have compression but I want the quality straight out of the camera, nothing like what MP4 does to a video etc.

the newer canon dslr 70D does all i-frame avc @ 90mbs with autofocus during video recording if you need that.


[Attachment 33404 - Click to enlarge]

[aedipuss]

avc - advanced video codec or mp4. normal avc/mp4 has up to a 250 frame gop(group of pictures), that makes editing a nightmare. all i-frame or 1 frame gop is easy to edit as it can be cut at any point without any re-rendering. it's more like editing DVavi.