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  1. Member
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    Hey Gang,

    I am about to capture some old Hi8 and MiniDV footage to the Pinnacle PCI card that came with Pinnacle 8 (currently running Pinnacle 15). Would I see a big improvement in quality by upgrading to a newer capture device? Or, is an old capture device just as good as a new one when it comes to capturing via composite video to MPEG2? In other words, would I see a better quality capture by using something like the Hauppauge HD PVR (capture to H264)?

    Thanks!

    Hanoihancock
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  2. My understanding is that Hi8 is an analog format. Are you dissatisfied with your captures of these tapes?

    MiniDV is already a digital format. If at all possible, use firewire to transfer the files to your computer. They will be about 13 GB per hour, but are easy to edit. If you are just cut-and-paste editing; every frame is a key frame so there would never be any re-coding, so no loss of quality. If you capture, you will probably be losing data due to higher compression ratios. Going from DV video at a 5:1 compression ratio to H.264 at 50:1 ?? may save disk space, but the quality will suffer.

    I have an Hauppauge HVR-1600, and I am not happy with my captures of my analog S-VHS Video tapes. The captured video has a lot of sync / timing issues.
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    Thanks for the reply Peg!

    The firewire-out on my miniDV camcorder failed, so I was thinking of capturing the miniDV content via composite output. It might make more sense to just borrow a miniDV camcorder with working firwire, huh? I'll get on that.

    Sync issues aside, how's the picture quality of the SVHS content you captured with your Hauppauge HVR-1600? Close to original?

    I guess the real question is... Where does the greatest loss occur when capturing analog content? The hardware (capture card or PC)? The cable (Svideo or Composite)? The act of compressing the video into a digital format (Mpeg2 or H264)?

    If the majority of the loss comes from the unavoidable compression to digital format, then it wouldn't make sense to upgrade to a newer capture card, right?

    Hanoihancock
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    Originally Posted by hanoihancock
    It might make more sense to just borrow a miniDV camcorder with working firwire, huh?
    Yes definitely. Keep it in the original format as long as possible before converting to its destination format. Then keep the tapes for future projects.

    You should be able to get it to look like the original. The loss shouldn't be noticeable or perceivable if done at a high enough bitrate. However remember these are analog sources so don't expect it to look perfect to begin with.

    If its purely analog use svideo if at all possible for the best possible capturing. For minidv use firewire whenever possible.

    You might check your manual on the minidv to see if it has analog passthrough. You might be able to play your analog tapes through the minidv camera and capture as dv-avi (you would hook the outputs from the analog camera to the inputs of the minidv camera and then hook the minidv to the computer with the firewire to complete the chain). Though that feature isn't available on all minidv cameras so its hit or miss and I guess its on the higher end models.

    Basically for quality use as high a bitrate as you can on your capture file. Then after that tailor it to your destination source be it dvd or bluray or h264 files. For the minidv tapes you have no choice on capture with the firewire - 13gb/hour as the other poster mentioned. However that is your best bet for those sources.
    Donatello - The Shredder? Michelangelo - Maybe all that hardware is for making coleslaw?
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    Commonly accepted evaluations of final output quality using various capture schemes. Listed from worst to best:

    1. Worst: Record analog directly to DVD recorder.

    2. Capture analog to USB/PC capture device with software encoding directly to compressed MPG/BR (quality depends on capture device)

    3. Capture analog to USB/PC capture device with software encoding directly to compressed MPG/BR, decompress to AVI, post-process, re-encode with quality encoder.

    4. Capture analog via tbc or tbc pass-thru with PC capture device via VirtualDub capture to lossless AVI, post-process, encode with quality encoder.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 21st Mar 2014 at 20:52.
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  6. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    #3 Alternate:
    Play analog with high end S-VHS VCR, run through stack of processing hardware, directly to DVD recorder.

    The VCR is important for all methods. A crappy VCR will yield crappy DVDs.
    Required reading: VCR Buying Guide (S-VHS, D-VHS, Professional) for video capturing

    However, for this specific project, I'd get another MiniDV camera.
    Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
    FAQs: Best Blank DiscsBest TBCsBest VCRs for captureRestore VHS
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    Agreed, the player and some form of line-level tbc would be essential. Even the best capture devices are severely limited without high quality input.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 21st Mar 2014 at 20:52.
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  8. Regarding your question regarding lost quality:

    Compression is a necessary evil for now. The more you compress, the more you lose, and don't de-compress / re-compress more than absolutely necessary.

    From my own experience, and from reading about others, it appears that the principal loss of quality, when trying to capture analog tapes, is in trying to get a stable signal from the tape into the capture device.(the timing / sync issue I mentioned in my original post) There is much discussion about professional level tape decks. analog pass-throughs, time base correctors etc. all attempting to deal with the problem of getting a stable, artifact free signal into the capture device.

    All of the other things can also have an impact of course, so if you want good video in the end you need to pay attention to all of it.

    For my own capture problems, the S-Video from my camera viewed in the big HD screen is lovely, stable, relaxing to view. The captured video is "nervous" has constant jitter. The image is stressful to view. The problem, IMHO appears to be that the TV sync circuits are much better at compensating for the instability coming from the tape than the sync circuit in the capture card. I will need to fix that before capturing. (Line or full frame TBC probably)

    You may find you have problems with your Hi8 video capture due to the signal quality from the tape. The miniDV tapes should stay digital!
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  9. Just a quick note about my capture card ( Hauppauge HVR-1600). If I understand correctly, it does a hardware supported compression to MPEG-2. It has 3-4 quality level settings (poor, OK, better, best). The best setting has a data rate of about 8500 kbps. If I try capturing to some other format such as lagarith lossless, I think I just end up with the decompressed MPEG-2 file.

    In future I am going to avoid cards that have hardware supported compression, unless I can guarantee that the card will also support real raw capture.

    The Hauppauge HD PVR (capture to H264) you mentioned may also be locked in to hardware compression.
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    Wow! Thanks for all of the great advice everyone!

    I hadn't even heard of a TBC until this thread. Unfortunately, I'm not ready to spend ~$400 for a piece of hardware I'll rarely use.

    I think I've got a a loaner MiniDV camera lined up to recapture my old miniDV tapes, but... Would it make more sense to outsource the recapture of my old hi8 tapes? I just submitted a request for a quote for video transfer from a local company. What do you think I should expect to pay to have a pro transfer my hi8 tapes to a lossless digital format?

    Thanks again!

    Hanoihancock
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    Originally Posted by hanoihancock View Post
    Wow! Thanks for all of the great advice everyone!

    I hadn't even heard of a TBC until this thread. Unfortunately, I'm not ready to spend ~$400 for a piece of hardware I'll rarely use.
    The $400 tbc you mention sounds like a full-frame tbc, which isn't what was recommended. Most useful for analog or DV capture is a line-level tbc. For $20 - $50 you can find plenty of used Toshiba or Panasonic DVD recorders made in 2000-2005 whose built-in line tbc's and y/c comb and dnr filters are ideal for your task. A frame-level tbc won't fix the kind of problems we're talking about.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 21st Mar 2014 at 20:52.
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    Originally Posted by peg View Post
    The Hauppauge HD PVR (capture to H264) you mentioned may also be locked in to hardware compression.
    The Hauppauge HD PVR also does compression via hardware and it cannot be bypassed. The H.264 hardware compression is a highly desirable feature for a lot of people, especially those who want to record HD video and do not have a computer with a powerful CPU, but the HD-PVR not the best tool for capturing analog tapes.

    From what other forum members have said, all the HD-capable capture devices need help from one or both kinds of TBCs when used for capturing analog tapes. They are sensitive to drop-outs and other irregularities in the signal.
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    For $20 - $50 you can find plenty of used Toshiba or Panasonic DVD recorders made in 2000-2005 whose built-in line tbc's and y/c comb and dnr filters are ideal for your task.
    I am interested in exploring this idea of using a TBC. Especially if one can be had for ~$40! Sorry to be such a noob, but... Can you explain how the capture process would work using a DVD Recorder to capture? Would I need to capture to DVD, then dump the DVD image to my PC? Or, is there a way to direct the hi8 camera through the DVD recorder, and further onward to the capture card on my PC?

    Thanks!

    Hanoihancock
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    The question is often asked: if I have a DVD recorder to begin with, why not just record to it? That's beside the point. The purpose of recording to losslesss video is to clean up the garbage that exists in all analog sources; that analog garbage looks worse in MPEG/BluRay and gives encoders the fits. A clean-up source looks cleaner, plays smoother, and makes for a more involving experience. I've recorded a few "pristine" (I thought they were at first, anyway) tapes directly to DVD. After viewing a few times, I was sorry I did.

    One advantage of a pass-thru tbc is that you're not tied to any single player or source. Pass-thru means what it says: you connect your video source to the DVD recorder's input, turn the recorder on, connect its s-video output to your capture device, and capture. On many occasions a Panny or Toshiba will ignore a lot of copy protection and clean up more than you would expect (doesn't always work, but I've been pleasantly surprised many times). If you're stuck with a composite source instead of s-video, these recorders have good y/c comb filters and better noise reduction (not always needed) than older tbc-equipped VCR's. You also have the advantage of the recorder not having to struggle with mechanical playback. The better Pannies and Toshibas from 2003-2005 also do a decent job of helping maintain frame/audio sync. For severe problems with that, you might need a $180 full-frame tbc after the recorder, but usually not. Don't use a full-frame tbc in front of a line-tbc; the frame-tbc will make corrections such that the line-tbc sees no errors, and will do nothing.

    Panasonics usually have active tbc on Line 1 only. Toshibas have it on all inputs.

    I recently posted some samples with a Panasonic ES20 and Toshiba R_D2, comparably priced used machines. Caution: I purposely used a beat-up, crummy retail copy-protected VHS tape that has been played to death for 20 years. The samples are capture-only, no post processing or cleanup, just to see what the tbc would do (and that tape did need some work, believe me!). There are several posts, but those of interest are the first capture showing copy protection effects without tbc. The others to note are the Panny s-video and Toshiba s-video with tbc on. There are some composite-cable-only tests with no s-video, but those are obviously inferior (no surprises there).

    The thread has other posts later on from other users and machines. My posts are here:
    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/331681-s-video-artifacts?p=2141384&viewfull=1#post2141384
    and here:
    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/331681-s-video-artifacts?p=2141386&viewfull=1#post2141386
    If you wanna get really technical, there's a long thread with test videos, etc. The tests begin here:
    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-wh...=1#post1981589

    Search the forum for recent test posts by jagabo and others. People have been making these posts for several years.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 21st Mar 2014 at 20:52.
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