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  1. Member
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    Hi Video Kings!

    I have a question about a source that is giving me headaches.

    I have an interview on dvd that has interlacing artifacts and that I think has pal to ntsc conversion issues:

    http://files.videohelp.com/u/183506/VTS_11_1.demuxed.m2v

    I used srestore to bring in back to 25fps and QTGMC for the interlacing. After, I slowed the whole thing down to 23.976. I find that the opening scene has a jerkiness to it. Is there a problem with my script? Does the opening scene play at a weird frame rate? I have the og, unfiltered clip attached. Your help is, as always, very appreciated!

    Thanks

    h
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  2. I see nothing in that video to suggest it is anything other than what Mediainfo says -- NTSC 29.97 interlaced video containing some telecined (and video edited) material in the introduction.

    What convinces you otherwise, and why are you going through backflips to convert it?
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  3. I agree. It's simply a mix of 30i and 24p (with pulldown to 30i) material.
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    hi!

    When I use srestore, it had put the footage as 25fps. I thought that because it went to 25, that was a problem. Is telecined because pattern of two interlaced frames followed by three normal ones?

    Edit:

    If the opening is telecined, what is this? Is it interlacing?

    http://files.videohelp.com/u/183506/interview.m2v

    My script to fix the opening is now:

    Mpeg2Source("VTS_01_1.d2v")
    TFM()
    TDecimate()

    This is the script I think I should use on the clip above. Am I right?

    Mpeg2Source("interview.d2v")
    AssumeTFF().QTGMC(Preset="placebo")
    SRestore()
    AssumeFPS(23.976)

    How can you tell which part is 30i and 24p?

    Thanks again!
    Last edited by hizzy7; 22nd Jun 2014 at 15:59.
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  5. Originally Posted by hizzy7 View Post


    If the opening is telecined, what is this? Is it interlacing?

    http://files.videohelp.com/u/183506/interview.m2v
    This section is interlaced 59.94 fields/second

    Every field is a unique moment in time (ie. when you examine a section with motion, each field is different)

    You can analyze the fields separately
    e.g

    Code:
    mpeg2source()
    assumetff()
    separatefields()

    Here is a mini guide
    http://neuron2.net/faq.html#analysis
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  6. Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    You can analyze the fields separately
    e.g

    Code:
    mpeg2source()
    assumetff()
    separatefields()
    Or instead of SeparateFields() use Bob(), Yadif(mode=1), QTGMC(), or any other double frame rate bob filter. With real interlaced video each field will be different. With telecined film you will see a 3:2 repeat pattern of the original film frames.
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    Hi!

    If I may ask, which program did you use to check the frame rate? I am using media info and it does not say 59.94, but rather 29.970.

    *edit: I see! This is a help! http://neuron2.net/faq.html#analysis

    Thanks!
    Last edited by hizzy7; 22nd Jun 2014 at 18:30.
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  8. Originally Posted by hizzy7 View Post
    If I may ask, which program did you use to check the frame rate? I am using media info and it does not say 59.94, but rather 29.970.
    Each frame of interlaced NTSC video contains two half pictures (called "fields"). Those two fields are supposed to be viewed separately and sequentially. So 29.97 interlaced frames per second video is to be viewed as 59.94 fields per second.

    Unfortunately, marketing types have started calling 29.97 fps interlaced video 59.94i or 60i because they think bigger numbers sound better. If someone goes into a store to buy a camcorder and they see that one shoots 30i and another shoots 60i they'll buy the latter (all else being equal). So as soon as one manufacturer started using the term 60i all the others had to follow. This has led to a lot of confusion about what 30i and 60i mean. They mean the same thing.
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    Hi Jagabo and All,

    So, when dealing with interlaced 59.94 fields/second footage, in your opinions, is this a good option?

    Mpeg2Source("interview.d2v")
    AssumeTFF().QTGMC(Preset="placebo")
    SRestore()
    AssumeFPS(23.976)

    Thanks!!!
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  10. Originally Posted by hizzy7 View Post
    So, when dealing with interlaced 59.94 fields/second footage, in your opinions, is this a good option?

    Mpeg2Source("interview.d2v")
    AssumeTFF().QTGMC(Preset="placebo")
    SRestore()
    AssumeFPS(23.976)
    No. Each field is from a different point in time, 59.94 (half) pictures per second. If you need to make a progressive video you want to keep every field, 59.94 picture per second. Just use:

    Code:
    Mpeg2Source("interview.d2v")
    AssumeTFF().QTGMC(Preset="placebo")
    If you decimate to 30p or 24p it will become jerky. Watch 24v30v60.avi in this post:

    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/307004-Best-framerate-conversion-%28eg-23-97-to-30-...=1#post1888926

    The 60p row plays very smoothly, the 30p and 24p rows are jerky/flickery. Of course, in a talking head shot you may not notice the jerkiness very much. So if you have a video that's predominantly film, you might choose to accept a little jerkiness in a short interview.
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  11. Member
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    Thanks for the explanation! To make sure I understand, I should use this script for the interview portion:

    Mpeg2Source("interview.d2v")
    AssumeTFF().QTGMC(Preset="placebo")

    Could I use that script for the clip in my first post, or should I be using this?:

    Mpeg2Source("VTS_01_1.d2v")
    TFM()
    TDecimate()

    The first clip I posted was telecined and is followed by interlaced 59.94 fields/second footage. They are both part of the same video. Do I need two separate scripts?

    Thanks!!
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  12. It depends what you plan to do with this. How is it intended to be viewed, what final format goal ?

    If you keep them separate segments , then you can have separate frame rates

    If you want a single video, you either need to introduce 3:2 duplicates in the 24p sections ChangeFPS(60000,1001)

    or make a VFR (variable frame rate) clip - this way 24p sections run at 24p, 59.94p bobbed sections run at 59.94p
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  13. You can always convert 30i to 60p. Motion will not look any worse than watching the original video. The issue is what your intended playback device/environment is. For example, 1920x1080p60 is not valid for Blu-ray.
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    The original played as a single piece and I would like this to play as a single piece, too.

    I would like to use this on a DVD.

    I tried this on the whole thing, and I thought it looked okay:

    Mpeg2Source("interview.d2v")
    AssumeTFF().QTGMC(Preset="placebo")

    That script wouldn't help with pulldown, would it?

    Thanks again!
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  15. You cannot use 60p on a DVD. Leave it 30i.
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  16. Member
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    You cannot use 60p on a DVD. Leave it 30i.
    So I should not try to make it progressive or anything?

    Thanks!
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  17. Originally Posted by hizzy7 View Post
    So I should not try to make it progressive or anything?
    Your video is already NTSC DVD compliant. No conversion or filtering required. Just author and burn.
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  18. Originally Posted by hizzy7 View Post
    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    You cannot use 60p on a DVD. Leave it 30i.
    So I should not try to make it progressive or anything?
    As was indicated earlier, if the video is mostly film you may not notice that the interview is reduced from 30i to 24p. The title sequence in your first clip had large motions so the jerkiness will be more apparent there. You could always leave the titles and interview 30i and convert the movie to 24p. If you're not going to otherwise filter the movie there's no reason to convert to 24p and reencode. Doing so will only degrade the picture.
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    Hi!

    Right now, I am thinking I would like the title sequence to be smooth. The title sequence seemed to follow the rules of 2:3 pulldown. Do you think it is advisable to fix the motion artifacts on the title sequence and leave the rest alone?

    The only filtering I would like to do to the video is some de-noising.

    I see what you mean about jerkiness in 30i to 24p. I can really see it in title section.

    Thank you again!!!
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  20. Originally Posted by hizzy7 View Post
    The title sequence seemed to follow the rules of 2:3 pulldown.
    Not in the sample you provided. It's 30i with motion at every field when the elements are moving. Like when the "LADY KUNG-FU" title slides in from the left. Later when the overlays slide in they move with each field. The picture within those overlays shows 3:2 pulldown of the original film frames. But if you want them to slide in smoothly you need to retain 30i.
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  21. I haven't double-checked, but I believe your telecined material also has a different cadence from clip to clip -- one clip starts on field 3, another starts on field 5 for example. Meaning to reconstitute it "properly" you would need to treat each box of the split screen independently.
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  22. Member
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    Hi,

    Its a shame that 60p doesn't work for dvd. It looks pretty good. Is 60p for blu-ray?

    The overlays do show pulldown. I don't think I will be able to fix that. I can't begin to guess how I could fix each box of the overlays.

    If you video kings were to make a DVD of this footage, would you do anything to it or leave it as is?

    Thank you again for all your help!!
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  23. Originally Posted by hizzy7 View Post
    If you video kings were to make a DVD of this footage, would you do anything to it or leave it as is?
    First I would hire a graphics artist to completely redo the visual elements into something more tasteful. Then I would try to redo the interview with HD gear, real lighting, a more interesting setting than a hotel room and a budget higher than $1. If reshooting was't possible, I would bring the interview sections into Resolve or some other high-end color correction system to add vignetting, shadow and bring out a greater sense of depth.

    You could also consider getting a TV with that smooth motion function (that many of us despise.) It would give you an effective frame rate of 120-240 fps and create interpolated fields to fill in the gaps.

    Alternatively, you could learn to appreciate that the piece is a product of its time, technology, vision and budget and leave it at that.
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  24. Member
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    Originally Posted by smrpix View Post
    Originally Posted by hizzy7 View Post
    If you video kings were to make a DVD of this footage, would you do anything to it or leave it as is?
    First I would hire a graphics artist to completely redo the visual elements into something more tasteful. Then I would try to redo the interview with HD gear, real lighting, a more interesting setting than a hotel room and a budget higher than $1. If reshooting was't possible, I would bring the interview sections into Resolve or some other high-end color correction system to add vignetting, shadow and bring out a greater sense of depth.

    You could also consider getting a TV with that smooth motion function (that many of us despise.) It would give you an effective frame rate of 120-240 fps and create interpolated fields to fill in the gaps.

    Alternatively, you could learn to appreciate that the piece is a product of its time, technology, vision and budget and leave it at that.
    Haha! Well said!!

    I think I may leave it as it is. I am tinkering with it right now, just for learning purposes.


    Is it right to say that 29.97i, 59.94i and 60i mean the same thing?


    Edit* I have been playing around and was wondering what you guys think of this clip. Is it an improvement?

    http://files.videohelp.com/u/183506/hapkido%20experiment_vidhelp.demuxed.m2v


    Thanks, Video Jedi!!
    Last edited by hizzy7; 23rd Jun 2014 at 12:08.
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  25. Originally Posted by hizzy7 View Post
    Is it right to say that 29.97i, 59.94i and 60i mean the same thing?
    Yes. An argument could be made that 60i is literally 60 (not 59.94) fields per second depending on context. For example, before color TV, black-and-white NTSC was exactly 60 fields per second. Only after color TV was introduced was it reduced to 59.94 fields per second.
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  26. Member
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    Thanks for the info, Jagabo!

    If you or anyone else has the time and feels so inclined, I am curious to see what you guys think of the clip I uploaded in post #24. Part of me feels like it is an improvement.
    Thanks again!
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