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  1. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    4 systems, KVM
    Sys1 IDE + USB2
    Sys2 IDE
    Sys3 SATA + USB2 + eSATA
    Sys4 SATA + IDE

    Transferring 500MB to 4GB files, up to 500GB at any time.
    Such a process often takes 6+ hours, done overnight, archiving of projects.

    If converted to gigabit ethernet cards, plus a gigabit 5-port switch, placing the archive drive (2TB with eSATA+USB2+Gigabit) onto ethernet, can I get faster speeds? Consider that Sys1 and Sys2 with the IDE and USB2 drives are primary used drives. Some from eSATA from Sys3, SATA from Sys4.

    How much faster? A lot? IDE the bottleneck?

    Also, able to connect to the ethernet drive with both gigabit AND the eSATA at same time? (Would only write with one or the other, however.)

    On related note, know of a good PCI eSATA + internal SATA card under $50?

    THANKS for any input you might have!
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    1. USB2.0 is a bigger bottle neck than IDE, (UDMA6/ATA133) is up to 133mb/s, while USB tops out @ 60mb/s (sustained)

    2. PCI slots don't have the bandwith of eSATA (133mb/s vs 300mb/s)

    ocgw

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  3. Member Safesurfer's Avatar
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    Can't give any insight on the gigabit ethernet, but I've recently started using an app called Teracopy that speeds up file transfers, I've definitely seen a speed improvement.

    Edit: Just read a different post where you said you tried it with no improvement, so scratch this post - sorry!
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    I have already got OB gigabit ethernet on 2 PC's in my network and have noticed transfering from PC to PC I only get 11mb/s, I am going gigabit router too

    ocgw

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  5. Using only internal drives, gig cards and hub, I found the improvement to be pretty significant. Moved a few DVD-size files across the net, it wasn't a 10x improvement, roughly more in the 3x ballpark.

    Sorry I didn't note the numbers, it was a temporary setup and was a while ago. No USB drive in the mix.

    You do have to make sure both the cards and the switch are gigabit capable.
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  6. Mod Neophyte Super Moderator redwudz's Avatar
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    I have a all gigabit LAN system and I have gotten transfers at 85MB/sec, which is about as fast as my AHCI SATA drives will go. Most times the speed drops down to 23MB/sec, probably from activity on the LAN and usually with some of my slower PCs. Hardly ever gets below that. I bought Intel gigabit LAN adapters as they are supposed to be the best. My switches are Trendnet gigabit and my router is a Netgear. I have four gigabit switches and ten PCs connected if they are all on. The system is wired with CAT5E and CAT6 cables. I haven't messed much with Jumbo frames, but that should also help with large file transfers.

    It's hard to find a decent quality SATA adapter for $50. That usually leaves out Promise or Adaptec, though you may find some of them for that. If you need eSATA, you can always add in a PCI slot eSATA adapter socket. I use several of those. I have two older Promise 4 port SATA PCI cards that have outlasted several computers and were probably closer to $60 new. This is a newer version: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816102065

    I'm transferring 8GB MKV files to one of my video servers at the moment and Vista is showing a 57MB/sec transfer speed. That takes about 1 3/4 minutes. Both PCs are using Vista and AHCI. The third transfer started at 97MB/sec and dropped down to 53MB/sec, but still took about the same time. The fourth transfer ran about 70MB/sec most of the way through and took about a minute. The slowest the transfers got was 50MB/sec. No idea why the transfer speed varies so much.
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    Ethernet is such a complicated process it would be pretty tough to calculate the actual difference (assuming Ethernet is the bottleneck). Bear in mind, collisions occur, errors are detected and data retransmitted. With Gigabit Ethernet there are lots more errors and lots more retransmissions, so the speed increase is certainly not proportional. Cable quality certainly becomes a much greater factor with Gigabit.

    An example of Gigabit being a big help would be in a server connected to a Gigbit port on the switch, feeding a bunch of computers with 100MB Ethernets.

    My experience is that between computers with 100MB cards and IDE drives, it takes me about 3 minutes to transfer 1GB. So if it is taking 6+ hours to transfer 4GB there is something seriously wrong that needs to be fixed before worrying about Gigabit v 100MB.

    My instinct is that there is a cabling issue, switch problems or one or more bad network cards on the network. I would start troubleshooting by removing from the network all but 2 of the devices (plus the switch) and do timed transfers between them. Then use 1 different device and repeat the test - trying to detect a bad network card. And try connecting 2 computers without the switch (probably need crossover cable) and repeat the timing test. If eliminating other devices on the network, including the switch and connecting 2 of the computers directly with a good Cat 5 cable doesn't transfer MUCH faster, then I don't believe Ethernet is the bottle neck and moving up to Gigabit probably won't make an observable difference.

    How long does it take to copy 4GB to another location (preferably another drive) on just one of the computers? The problem could be something as simple as whether the controller is set to DMA?

    Setting the parameters on the cards is a consideration - you need to check things like full / half duplex, drivers and other settings your network cards may have.
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    One of my clients upgraded their infrastructure from 100mb to gigabit and we upgraded the server with a gigabit card, as well. All the client machines were already gigabit. We found a 4-6x increase in speed transferring large files. When transferring many small files, there's a bunch of overhead at the destination disk creating the file containers so the speed boost isn't quite as good. However, the improvement was well worth the money spent.
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  9. I just copied a 4 GB file across my all gigabit network. It took about 3 minutes. Drive to drive (both SATA II) on the same computer took about 1 minute (pretty full drives).

    Real world USB2 throughput is limited to about 30 MB/s. About half the raw 60 MB/s it is rated at.

    <edit>
    I thought the above gigabit network transfer seemed rather slow. One of the computers was connected to the switch with a 100' Cat5 cable so it wasn't running full speed. Copying the same file between to computers connected to the switch with Cat5e took about a minute and 15 seconds, about 55 MB/s. The destination computer had a fairly old 160 GB SATA drive.
    </edit>
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  10. contrarian rallynavvie's Avatar
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    If you are transferring files with 100-base Ethernet now then you will notice a substantial difference when going to GbE. It isn't an order of magnitude but you're going to see roughly 4-5 times the performance, sometimes greater.

    As for connecting the external drive to both Ethernet and eSATA: that's probably a no. Check with the vendor's site on its limitations but usually it's going to take any single input. It might appear to work but if it's unsupported you're liable to run into issues when two sessions are asking for the same file.
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  11. Originally Posted by rallynavvie
    As for connecting the external drive to both Ethernet and eSATA: that's probably a no.
    Almost certainly a no. There is no way for the two operating systems (the server in the box, the OS accessing via eSATA) to know what the other OS is doing. Recipe for disaster.
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  12. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Legendsk
    taking 6+ hours to transfer 4GB there is something seriously wrong
    Max file size is 4GB, total data being moved is at least 100GB, up towards 500GB, that takes 6+ hours.
    A 4GB file would maybe take 5 minutes.

    Replacing CAT5 cables is something I had not considered. What is the penalty for not replacing all of the cables? For those being replaced, go CAT5E or CAT6, or does not matter? Where to buy new cables for low price? (Microcenter is where I'm going for the switch and cards, or maybe Fry's)
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  13. LS, I have been running giggalan for a few years and have never looked back. With the costs so cheap now you would be a fool not to. An average 4-6gig files takes about 3 minutes to transfer from one pc to another. Just make sure wire your connections properly.
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  14. contrarian rallynavvie's Avatar
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    IIRC the difference between Cat5 and Cat6 is added shielding between the twisted pairs. This is certainly helpful when running long lengths but not required for short runs. I use all Cat5 for my GbE implementation but the runs are less than 12'. I did use Cat6 when I ran cables internally for my cabin but I figured that with runs of 100' it would be helpful. And it was the same cost for a spool of Cat6.
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  15. FWIW, CAT5 isn't certified for GigE, CAT6 is
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    Cat5e isn't worth the savings (over Cat6). I'd be hard pressed to even know where to buy any Cat5e at this point; everyone's selling either 5 or 6.

    Besides, when the next upgrade in nics or switches happens, it's likely Cat6 will be the entry level for it, not 5e.
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  17. Mod Neophyte Super Moderator redwudz's Avatar
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    You may still see a lot of CAT5E with pre-made cables. It works fine for gigabit LAN for short runs. Regular CAT5 I wouldn't use for anything. I agree for long runs, CAT6 is a better choice. I was lucky, my house was pre-wired with CAT6 for the phone system. I use a cell, so I rewired all the jacks to Ethernet, so I have access in every room.

    I find the biggest bottleneck to transfer speed is the computer. The gigabit LAN transfers very fast. My older computers are quite a bit slower, especially the PATA drives. The newer SATA drives in AHCI mode are my fastest.
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    Sorry, I misunderstood the total amount of data being transferred. If you're copying 4GB in 3 min with 100MB cards that's pretty good. Gigabit cards and switch will surely help some. Also turning off all equipment on the network except the host, switch and destination will reduce network traffic a little bit and help. I completely agree that if you're going to replace cable, use Cat 6.

    I'll be a little surprised if going to Gigabit cards and switch will get you 4 or 5 times performance for the task, reducing the time to 1 1/2 hours. I would really expect more like a 25% improvement, but then I've been wrong before. Gigabit is so inexpensive at this point, it won't cost much to try.
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  19. Originally Posted by Legendsk
    I'll be a little surprised if going to Gigabit cards and switch will get you 4 or 5 times performance for the task, reducing the time to 1 1/2 hours. I would really expect more like a 25% improvement
    That's about what I would expect. Say, a 4 hour transfer over 100 Mb ethernet would be reduced to 3 hours with gigabit. A little more or less depending on drive speed.
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    I am thinking about purchasing this gigabit router

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833127060

    ocgw

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  21. There was an article on Tom's Hardware a while back:

    http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gigabit-ethernet-bandwidth,2321.html

    which covered the topic well.

    I went gigabit last year; file transfers are 3x faster if the computers aren't doing much. If I have a slew of torrents and the World Grid Project going, as I usually do, I get 1.5x, using built-in interfaces and cat5e, not over fifty feet. I'm using a Dlink DIR-655 firewall/router.
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  22. Mod Neophyte Super Moderator redwudz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ocgw
    I am thinking about purchasing this gigabit router

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833127060
    I used one of those for a couple of years. The blue LEDs are very bright, but it worked fine. I never used it for gaming, though. I needed a wireless N router so I went with a NETGEAR WNR2000. I had two Linksys gigabit routers and they both died in a week, so no more of them. I still use that D-Link router for a gigabit switch in part of my system. (Just use the LAN ports.)
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    Originally Posted by redwudz
    Originally Posted by ocgw
    I am thinking about purchasing this gigabit router

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833127060
    I used one of those for a couple of years. The blue LEDs are very bright, but it worked fine. I never used it for gaming, though. I needed a wireless N router so I went with a NETGEAR WNR2000. I had two Linksys gigabit routers and they both died in a week, so no more of them. I still use that D-Link router for a gigabit switch in part of my system. (Just use the LAN ports.)
    I am going 4+ years strong on a Linksys wired cable/DSL router w/ 4-port switch (BEFSR41)

    ocgw

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    Hey Lordsmurf - if you do decide to upgrade all or part of your network, please post the results and let us know how much effect it had.
    Thanks
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  25. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    I have less than 24 hours to decide on making the purchase, and then it would be implemented the first week of September. I'll definitely post back what I decide... and results if I do the changeover. I'm thinking I pretty much need this, but still looking at $$$ figures.
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  26. Mod Neophyte Super Moderator redwudz's Avatar
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    The router is usually the biggest expense. The switches aren't too bad. I use a couple of Trendnet gigabit switches and they are inexpensive and work great. Check your existing CAT cables and see what they are labeled as. If you need to replace CAT5, I would definitely go for CAT6. I went ahead and bought a crimp tool and I put my own cables together now.

    You will probably also have the expense of buying a handful of gigabit PCI adapters. Most all my newer MBs have them on-board. I did buy four of the fairly expensive Intel gigabit adapters, but my on-board gigabit ones worked just as fast, so I don't use them much anymore. Gigabit really does well with large file transfers. Small files, not as fast, but still faster than a 100 LAN.

    And you might read up on Jumbo Frames. That has the capability to work better with large files. My transfer rates are good enough as is, and I never got Jumbo Frames to work correctly. My file transfers from my encoder computer to my server go through two switches and the router and about 100' of CAT6 and the transfer rate usually runs close to the speed of the HDDs.
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  27. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    For now, I'd stick to the same CAT5 cable. If I go to CAT6, it'd be December.
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    Five years ago, we had our house wired with the Monster Cable, which has two cat5e and two coax cables bundled into a single insulated sheath. We have one cat5e wired for gigabit Ethernet, one cat5e for telephone, and the coax is cable tv and video broadcasting. We have the cable internet connected with a linksys router with hardware firewall, and that is connected to a SMC gigabit switch for the eight rooms to be connected. The entire system is placed in a media panel in the laundry room. There is a significant speed increase from our former 10/100 home network. We can easily transfer files to any computer on the system quickly. In addition, I enjoy the safety of not being wireless with our network.

    Wired Gigabit = Speed and Safety.
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  29. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Yes, my house is wired with RG6 to all rooms!
    Best thing ever.
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    I built myself a file server using OpenSolaris as OS and then I get up to 90 MB/s file transfer speed over gigabit ethernet if the client PC is using Windows Vista. With XP or Linux clients I only get up to 50 MB/s. But I use good intel PCIe gigabit cards on both server and client. On an older PC using gigabit card on the PCI bus I get maximum 35 MB/s transfer speed (but still as fast as an USB2 hard drive).

    With 100 Mbit network the maximum speed is 11 MB/s so in my opinion it is worth changing to gigabit speed even if using old PC with PCI gigabit card. I recommend investing in good intel gigabit cards. I tried realtek based gigabit cards (both integrated and a PCI card) but they gave me nothing but trouble.
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