Collossus Q (or stick with ADVC)

[Tafflad]

I have until now been using an ADVC to capture VHS VCR output to digital .... (via WINDV)
There have been comments that the DV format (& compression) is too lossy .... although compared to the source (Analogue VHS) not really seen an issue.

Have seen many posts that the product to get is the Collossus PCI Video Capture card, and then saving in lossless format.
Looking at getting one (used) .... something I'm slightly confused about .........
The Colossus card captures as H.264

Now if I follow the spec it uses H264/MPEG-4 (part 10) and H264 is itself a Lossy compression format ?

I know that DV is around 5:1 compression and MPEG-4 is around 20:1 compression, I appreciate it is motion compensated and particularity suitable for phones & portable media players.

However I'm a little lost as to why the Collossus would then be better than DV for capture of VHS video, if DV is less compressed, would it not be better to stick with DV ?
As I will be post capture editing and DV has all frames as 'key frames' it seems to me (I'm probably wrong) that DV would be a better capture format? If I need MPEG-4 (i.e. for internet upload) then I can encode to that after completion of editing.


Just trying to justify whether I should get one of these cards or not.

[jman98]

I own the Colossus. Let me assure you that it ONLY captures in H.264, which is lossy as you state. Anyone who says it is capable of lossless capture is either lying or they need to go into exact details on how they pulled this off as I've never read about such captures being possible.

I'm no expert, but if I remember correctly most of the people around here don't like DV capture any more for various reasons, including the fact that it's lossy.

To be blunt, VHS capture is a religious issue with some members here. Yes, the best possible results can be obtained by doing lossless capture, heavy filtering/processing via AviSynth, and then re-encoding, but honestly most human beings just don't care that much. My point is that going to all that trouble probably only results in maybe a 5% quality improvement and many people won't even notice the difference. But the devotees swear that it's like a million times better to capture losslessly and the quality is a million times better on the final output and they insist that everybody can tell the difference. I capture VHS tapes with my Colossus and do some simple AviSynth processing and I'm happy with it. Let's be honest here. The most honest members admit that VHS tapes are actually pretty lousy to begin with. Homemade tapes are usually recorded at low quality speeds to get as much as possible on the tape and even commercial tapes are often not all that good either as you will find out when you start to do this. But we have a few members who swear that they are getting "DVD quality" on their captures and I'm part of the group that believes that this is not a realistic expectation for most people.

What is your final output goal? To put on DVD? BluRay? Just save the files to a computer and play from there? Note that the Colossus usually records AAC audio, which will have to be converted for DVD and BluRay. It can record Dolby audio but ONLY if you use a coax cable for the audio AND the audio source is in Dolby. Even then it may still revert back to AAC under some conditions. You cannot force the card to do Dolby, unfortunately. The Colossus also has a hidden TBC (time base corrector) you can turn on with a registry hack. I have used this and found it very useful, but as they say, your mileage may vary.

[smrpix]

You could also step up to one of the Blackmagic Intensity products and give yourself higher quality options.

[Tafflad]

I own the Colossus. Let me assure you that it ONLY captures in H.264, which is lossy as you state.

.............

I'm no expert, but if I remember correctly most of the people around here don't like DV capture any more for various reasons, including the fact that it's lossy.
.............

What is your final output goal? To put on DVD? BluRay? .

I agree DV is lossy, and H264 is even more lossy but for many the benefit is very small MPEG-4 file size (not my goal)

My need is to capture PAL VHS/S-VHS tapes ... and then these are post processed AVIsynth etc., saved as Lagarith and dumped into Sony Vegas for NLE editing ... usually to create a DVD
As source is only SVHS (at best).. just create as MPEG-2 with AC3 audio DVD's ... don't bother with BluRay.

Any new video is already in AVCHD format so no capture issues there.


Maybe its not worth me bothering to change and I stick with the ADVC I have.

[Tafflad]

You could also step up to one of the Blackmagic Intensity products and give yourself higher quality options.

Not familiar with them ...
Key for me is that I need S-Video input (& RCA audio) ... not sure if the Intensity Pro PCI card does that ...
and if it would have to be Intensity 'shuttle' box

[jman98]

Maybe its not worth me bothering to change and I stick with the ADVC I have.

You need to decide if your goal is just to get this done or if you are going to be obsessive about this and spend MANY hours if not DAYS on EACH videotape trying to make tiny improvements in quality that likely most people will never notice. How much money is it REALLY worth spending on this project? How much time? And be honest - is ANYBODY really and truly going to watch the output more than once? These are all factors that should be considered when thinking about how much money or time to spend on such a project.

[Khaver]

I would think having a TBC built into the Collosus would steer you in that direction. It would go along way in getting reasonably good VHS captures. Add bumping up the h264 bitrate while capturing and you should get video you can post-process to some degree.

[usually_quiet]

You could also step up to one of the Blackmagic Intensity products and give yourself higher quality options.

Not familiar with them ...
Key for me is that I need S-Video input (& RCA audio) ... not sure if the Intensity Pro PCI card does that ...
and if it would have to be Intensity 'shuttle' box

The Blackmagic Intensity Pro PCI-e card has an S-Video adapter that plugs into the main breakout cable. One of the product pictures here shows it. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815710002 The Blackmagic Intensity Pro PCI-e card is very good, but from everything I have read, it is not the easiest capture device to use for VHS capture. A good TBC is not optional equipment when capturing analog tapes with it.

The BMI shuttle doesn't work with all USB 3.0 controllers. It is very picky in that respect. Blackmagic has certified relatively few motherboards as being suitable for use with this product.

[jagabo]

You could also step up to one of the Blackmagic Intensity products and give yourself higher quality options.

Except the BMI products often have problems with VHS. They have trouble syncing to video with time base errors. You'll need a full frame TBC to use it with VHS (the line TBC in your s-vhs deck probably won't help for this). And the standard def capture circuitry on the BMI devices is only an afterthought. They're primarily designed for high def capture. Even when they work they're a waste of money for SD capture.

[Tafflad]

You could also step up to one of the Blackmagic Intensity products and give yourself higher quality options.

Except the BMI products often have problems with VHS. They have trouble syncing to video with time base errors. You'll need a full frame TBC to use it with VHS (the line TBC in your s-vhs deck probably won't help for this). And the standard def capture circuitry on the BMI devices is only an afterthought. They're primarily designed for high def capture. Even when they work they're a waste of money for SD capture.

That answers that then ... forget BlackMagic

[PuzZLeR]

My need is to capture PAL VHS/S-VHS tapes ... and then these are post processed AVIsynth etc., saved as Lagarith and dumped into Sony Vegas for NLE editing ... usually to create a DVD
As source is only SVHS (at best).. just create as MPEG-2 with AC3 audio DVD's ... don't bother with BluRay.

Any new video is already in AVCHD format so no capture issues there.


Maybe its not worth me bothering to change and I stick with the ADVC I have.

If size advantage is your goal, I would say go H.264, however, since you intend to output to lossless at some point in your workflow, then I see no real advantage to either.

It is arguable, but assuming you have no dropped frames, I see no big difference between capturing to DV or H.264 for VHS video. In fact, just stick with your ADVC, use DV since it's so much better for editing than H.264 (including with Vegas), and skip the lossless video (Lagarith) step entirely.

You can encode directly from the DV -> DvD after edits. You can even archive the Source as DV as well if you like afterwards.

And even SD (full-D1 DvD MPEG-2) video, and AC3 A/52 standard audio, that is compatible with DvD is fully compatibly muxed and authored into a blu-ray structure. You can migrate these streams back and forth losslessly.

I say stick with this and finish off your VHS forever since you're currently using AVCHD now and beyond. (I hate VHS.)

Then again, I don't know how good that TBC fix in the Colussus is, but I can't remember from your other threads - do you have an external TBC?

[PuzZLeR]

You could also step up to one of the Blackmagic Intensity products and give yourself higher quality options.

Except the BMI products often have problems with VHS. They have trouble syncing to video with time base errors. You'll need a full frame TBC to use it with VHS (the line TBC in your s-vhs deck probably won't help for this). And the standard def capture circuitry on the BMI devices is only an afterthought. They're primarily designed for high def capture. Even when they work they're a waste of money for SD capture.

That answers that then ... forget BlackMagic

I would state it more simply - BMI is nice, but overkill for VHS. It's like buying a Porsche to do your grocery shopping errands.

[Tafflad]

Thnx