NTSC camcorder on laptops better than PAL?

[Bencuri]

I thought this PAL/NTSC conflict had been ended at least 10 years ago with digital video. But later I realized in DV the fps is not the same on an NTSC and PAL camcorder, and then some guys here made me understand that 60/30 fps recording should be played on 60Hz and 50/25 on 50Hz.

My HDTV supports both frequencies. And I also have 3 laptops, all has 60Hz refresh rate on its LCD. You can't choose other value, this is the only one and default. I purchased these in local shops here in my county. We have PAL system on TV here, but the laptop LCD standard is 60Hz, interestingly.

So my question is: in my case, is it better buying a PAL or NTSC camcorder? You see, my TV can run on 60Hz as well, and all the laptops run on 60Hz only. It seems to me I would face problems with PAL camcorders on laptop, right?

[edDV]

...
So my question is: in my case, is it better buying a PAL or NTSC camcorder? You see, my TV can run on 60Hz as well, and all the laptops run on 60Hz only. It seems to me I would face problems with PAL camcorders on laptop, right?

Pro and con. In your country you will get the best result on the HDTV using a 50Hz camcorder. The main reason is shooting in artificial lighting situations will cause flicker from lights when 60Hz is used.

As for the lapttop computer, 50 Hz is a compromise unless you get a computer that specifically supports 50Hz refresh. This is rare for an LCD laptop. See this wiki for a more complete explanation (see "Presentation").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_image_formats

You can get a desktop computer with a display card that supports 50Hz HDMI output to a 50 Hz TV monitor but setup is difficult. I use DV/HDV (IEEE-1394) or SDI out for 50 Hz display but this is "going pro". Many edit programs will output DV or SDI format at 50Hz for monitoring. WinDV will play 50 HZ DV files to IEEE-1394.

[2Bdecided]

50i, deinterlaced to 50p, will judder slightly on a 60Hz display.

You'll have to do what most people in "PAL" countries do (if they choose to watch "PAL" content): put up with it.

I wouldn't dream of shooting 60Hz ("NTSC") in a 50Hz country. The most common reason for doing so is to save money: "NTSC" camcorders tend to be cheaper. Or to get true 24p (only available on some "NTSC" camcorders). But 25p is close enough (found on some "PAL" camcorders), if that's the look you want. Neither 24p nor 25p play back without extra judder on a 60Hz display, but as they're not smooth to start with, people accept this more.

As edDV says, flicker (or banding) under certain lights is the biggest problem. But there's also the problem of giving your footage to someone else: very old EU TVs won't do NTSC, and anyone using composite or s-video connections will struggle to get colour on most TVs. Some DVD players are set to convert NTSC>PAL by default = very badly - so even if a persons TVs can display "NTSC" perfectly, they may end up watching a really bad conversion instead.

Also editing your new "NTSC" footage with older "PAL" footage of yours, or with "PAL" footage from other people, will be a nightmare.

Finally, 24p or 25p arguably looks slightly better on YouTube/facebook/Vimeo etc than 30p. At least, it has fewer encoding artefacts. You can easily get 25p from 50i, or 30p from 60i. 24p from 60i is less good.

If none of this matters, it doesn't matter what you buy - and the cheaper NTSC option that plays more nicely on your laptop could be preferred. Though sometimes, without a little effort, even 60i will jump a little on 60Hz displays - some windows players aren't good at locking the rates together by default.

Cheers,
David.

[Stears555]

Use External display for laptop, and set it to 75Hz or 100Hz. It will be perfect for 25P PAL videos!

Cheers

[Bencuri]

Use External display for laptop, and set it to 75Hz or 100Hz. It will be perfect for 25P PAL videos!

Cheers

This option is out of sight for me. I already have 2 laptops, my parents have 1 more, a HDTV, projector. And my room is filled with too much tech things by now. For practical reasons I cannot allow anothe LCD in my room or the house. Moreover I choose the laptops because of mobility. So this separate LCD screen is really not an option.

[Bencuri]

If none of this matters, it doesn't matter what you buy - and the cheaper NTSC option that plays more nicely on your laptop could be preferred. Though sometimes, without a little effort, even 60i will jump a little on 60Hz displays - some windows players aren't good at locking the rates together by default.

Cheers,
David.

What does this mean: "aren't good at locking rates together"?

Anyway I am recording for myself mostly, to watch it on HDTV. But most of my friends ask the video files from me on SD card to watch my videos on computer. So this would make the NTSC a better option. However writing the data to Blue Ray would be more practical, and in that case the PAL would be better, too, because of the TV system here. The problem is just that I don't have Blue Ray Writer.

But how is this converting inside players anyway? When I connect my DVD player to the projector, the projector always displays the refresh and resolution rate for a few seconds. If I play NTSC material, I can see 1080i 60HZ, for pal 50Hz. So What conversion are you talking about? It seems my player just projects the signal as it gets it. Else on the projector there would be no difference in the displayed info, right?

[edDV]

I've shot a lot of 60Hz video in 50Hz countries. The one thing I forgot to mention was the extreme flicker that occurs if you get a 50/100 Hz TV display in your shot. This would include digital signage.

[Bencuri]

I've shot a lot of 60Hz video in 50Hz countries. The one thing I forgot to mention was the extreme flicker that occurs if you get a 50/100 Hz TV display in your shot. This would include digital signage.

But it refers to only those TV's where there is no 60/120Hz compatiblility, only 50/100HZ, right?

[edDV]

I've shot a lot of 60Hz video in 50Hz countries. The one thing I forgot to mention was the extreme flicker that occurs if you get a 50/100 Hz TV display in your shot. This would include digital signage.

But it refers to only those TV's where there is no 60/120Hz compatiblility, only 50/100HZ, right?

Any "PAL" TV or sign that gets in your shot plus any light reflections from a TV.

[Bencuri]

I've shot a lot of 60Hz video in 50Hz countries. The one thing I forgot to mention was the extreme flicker that occurs if you get a 50/100 Hz TV display in your shot. This would include digital signage.

But it refers to only those TV's where there is no 60/120Hz compatiblility, only 50/100HZ, right?

Any "PAL" TV or sign that gets in your shot plus any light reflections from a TV.

Oh, sorry, I understand what you mean, the filming of a TV. That is no problem by far. It would be the last thing for me to consider.

The lightbulbs are much more problematic.

[edDV]

I've shot a lot of 60Hz video in 50Hz countries. The one thing I forgot to mention was the extreme flicker that occurs if you get a 50/100 Hz TV display in your shot. This would include digital signage.

But it refers to only those TV's where there is no 60/120Hz compatiblility, only 50/100HZ, right?

Any "PAL" TV or sign that gets in your shot plus any light reflections from a TV.

Oh, sorry, I understand what you mean, the filming of a TV. That is no problem by far. It would be the last thing for me to consider.

The lightbulbs are much more problematic.

There are more TV displays than you might think.

Florescent lighting is the worst for flicker including CFL bulbs that are now everywhere. I haven't tested LED lighting yet.

[edDV]

I found this example in my archives of an extreme 50 Hz flicker case from the exterior lighting of the Abbey at Le Mont-Saint-Michel in France. The tungsten street lights didn't flicker as much but the Abbey's large flood lights flickered badly when shot with a 60Hz CCD Hi8 camcorder. This was captured to DV format using a Sony GV-D200 deck. Many city street lights produce similar flicker.

DV-AVI format file 22 MB
http://files.videohelp.com/u/73049/FRO47.avi

Wide view

[KBeee]

So is this is more to do with strobing than 50 Vs. 60 Hz? Shooting an artificially lit 50 Hz. sight on a 60 Hz. camera would look crap for flicker.
How did it film in sunlight ?

[edDV]

Shooting an artificially lit 50 Hz. sight on a 60 Hz. camera would look crap for flicker.

That was the point.

[_Al_]

Get a 50p camcorder (I'd avoid even 50i) and do not think of something else.

I understand it is a bad time to buy camcorder now, they try to sell 50i as much as they can even now, get some 50p Panasonic. As soon as Canon starts to offer 50p get that one and sell that Panasonic right away if you do not like those colors as you stated somewhere else. You will loose much more with 60p adventure in PAL country.

[Bencuri]

Yes, this lightbulb thing is a problem, and I will consider this seriously. I didn't think this is that big a problem. However, the other side of the coin is, that I cannot afford more than 800-1000$ for a camcorder. On this level, I don't think I can get any that can make really, really decent videos at night. So from this aspect the lightbulb thing is marginal. Because think of this: in the US I can buy an NTSC camcorder for the fraction of the local price here, so I can buy a much better one from my money. If I buy a PAL one, it will cost more, and surely it won't be as good to make it worth recording at night, and won't be as good as the NTSC at daylight, because here I can buy only a worse camcorder for the same money. So from this aspect maybe the NTSC would be a better choice on this budget level. At least this way I can buy a camcorder that records stunning videos daylight.

These are just ideas, but in the future I have to consider this problem seriously.

[Bencuri]

I found this example in my archives of an extreme 50 Hz flicker case from the exterior lighting of the Abbey at Le Mont-Saint-Michel in France. The tungsten street lights didn't flicker as much but the Abbey's large flood lights flickered badly when shot with a 60Hz CCD Hi8 camcorder. This was captured to DV format using a Sony GV-D200 deck. Many city street lights produce similar flicker.

DV-AVI format file 22 MB
http://files.videohelp.com/u/73049/FRO47.avi

Wide view

[Attachment 12540 - Click to enlarge]

Man, I thought I will see this nice image in the video as well ! I thought this was cut from your video!

But the flickering is disturbing, indeed.

[edDV]

I found this example in my archives of an extreme 50 Hz flicker case from the exterior lighting of the Abbey at Le Mont-Saint-Michel in France. The tungsten street lights didn't flicker as much but the Abbey's large flood lights flickered badly when shot with a 60Hz CCD Hi8 camcorder. This was captured to DV format using a Sony GV-D200 deck. Many city street lights produce similar flicker.

DV-AVI format file 22 MB
http://files.videohelp.com/u/73049/FRO47.avi

Wide view

[Attachment 12540 - Click to enlarge]

Man, I thought I will see this nice image in the video as well ! I thought this was cut from your video!

But the flickering is disturbing, indeed.

No not my view. It came from WikiPedia. It looks like a nice time exposure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MSM_sunset_02.JPG

The clip I showed was during a reorientation on the tripod as you can hear in the audio. I wanted to show some motion* with the flicker. At that location I was going for locked down shots in hope noise reduction would work. It didn't. The flicker was too extreme.

* I got nice stills on 35mm film that were ultimately used.

[Stears555]

Or use 600HZ plasma display (you can run them also in 150Hz mode. It is a bit expensive but it is really an international standard )) 600Hz or 300HZ or 150HZ is perfect for both PAL and NTSC ))

[2Bdecided]

If none of this matters, it doesn't matter what you buy - and the cheaper NTSC option that plays more nicely on your laptop could be preferred. Though sometimes, without a little effort, even 60i will jump a little on 60Hz displays - some windows players aren't good at locking the rates together by default.

Cheers,
David.

What does this mean: "aren't good at locking rates together"?

The 60Hz of the LCD and the 60Hz of the content are neither exactly 60Hz, and are not synchronised - so you can get frames duplicated or skipped. Also the start of the LCD frame isn't linked with the start of the video frame, so the frame can change mid-way down the image, causing tearing. Both can be avoided, but some players/PCs will give this by default. Others will be near-perfect by default.

Anyway I am recording for myself mostly, to watch it on HDTV. But most of my friends ask the video files from me on SD card to watch my videos on computer. So this would make the NTSC a better option. However writing the data to Blue Ray would be more practical, and in that case the PAL would be better, too, because of the TV system here. The problem is just that I don't have Blue Ray Writer.

But how is this converting inside players anyway? When I connect my DVD player to the projector, the projector always displays the refresh and resolution rate for a few seconds. If I play NTSC material, I can see 1080i 60HZ, for pal 50Hz. So What conversion are you talking about? It seems my player just projects the signal as it gets it. Else on the projector there would be no difference in the displayed info, right?

Most European DVD players with an analogue output will have a menu option to tell it what your TV can handle: PAL/NTSC/MULTI. That means it will either convert everything to PAL, everything to NTSC, or just output what's on the disc (because by selecting MULTI you are telling it that the TV is multi-standard - it can handle either).

With HDMI, the display capabilities are communicated back to the player automatically using the E-EDID, so there's nothing for the user to set. You equipment should just do the best it can automatically.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
David.