Is 480i the best an average Joe can hope for?

[gigantibyte]

I had lofty hopes of making HD rips off my satellite box, but after researching the matter I'm not holding my breath.

It seems my options to achieve better than 480i are:

(1) Put down a lot of $$$ to upgrade my system, and buy the Blackmagic Intensity Pro card.

(2) Learn Japanese, and buy a card like the "Monster X" I've been reading about.

(3) Somehow hack my Motorola DSR505 to capture the MPEG-2 stream "after it is decrypted, but before it is decoded" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_video_recorder#Satellite_or_digital_cable

(4) Keep waiting (for a device that may never come out.)


Did I miss anything? I wanted to build my own PVR, but at this point I'd be happy with a standalone DVR or some other contraption that does better than 480i. Even just 480p would be nice.

[neomaine]

Your correct, doing HD captures (1280x720 or better) is rather costly at this point in time.

What are you using to capture with? 720x480p (dvd resolution) shouldn't be a problem with your system specs. And with HD sat as a source it should look pretty good...

[Mysteriouskk]

What are you going to capture?

I have the Monster X and it doesn't look that hard to translate or figure it out. Now I'm just trying to figure how to encode my videos.

[gigantibyte]

What are you using to capture with? 720x480p (dvd resolution) shouldn't be a problem with your system specs. And with HD sat as a source it should look pretty good...

At the moment, I'm using a Toshiba DVR, and the best I can achieve is 720x480 interlaced. What I would like is to find a device that captures at least 720x480 progressive.

What are you going to capture?

I have the Monster X and it doesn't look that hard to translate or figure it out. Now I'm just trying to figure how to encode my videos.

Any website with an English ordering page I could order the card from? What kind of adapters (if any) would I need?

I would like to capture TV shows & movies, perhaps off the component or DVI connections of my sat box.

AutoGK works well for encoding.

[themaster1]

I believe d-vhs is the best solution at this time

But i don't know if u can easily remove drm protecttion

The dvb-s2 cards are starting to be manufactured but the problem is your system, meaning motherboard, graphic card etc must be "strong"

With a d-vhs player you can Rec in whatever format plus it doesn't take resources of your cpu..obviously

now correct me if i'm wrong

[neomaine]

Anything high def is going to cost considerable dollars. I've never used a DVR but quite frankly I'm surprised that it doesn't do progressive like most standard DVDs. Maybe its common, like I said, no experience there.

However, going to 480p is simple enough with many many capture cards. I happen to be a fan of the ATI AIW series. Many here would also swear by the Hauppauge cards. In the end, for what you've described you want to do - 720x480 progressive mpeg2, you should be able to get something in the $50 range.

I'm still using a ATI AIW 32meg DDR from (I think) 2001. Still captures like a charm. I record many things from satellite and am very happy with the results. I schedule my sat receiver to auto-tune at the correct time, schedule the MMC (8.7/8.9 is what I still use) software from ATI and capture to 720x480 2500 mpeg2 video and 192 mp2 audio. Ready to author and burn if I need to.

Though, I must say, I leave all these TV/sat captures in their native interlaced. To force it to progressive would include to much loss of quality (not that the rest of my family would notice the difference). Never really found something that deinterlaced well, or, at least well enough to make a difference. (Which kind of makes me wonder about your need to have progressive...but that's up to you...)

If Lordsmurf's site is still around, it can give all the basics and specifics you need for ATI captures. I'm sure there's also many here using the Hauppauge family that could point you in the right direction. Both companies, and many others, have external USB devices now that you may be interested in.

Use the capture how-tos here on the site for a wealth of info...

[gigantibyte]

D-VHS is nice and all, but doesn't provide a way (as far as I can find) to get the recorded material off the tapes and onto a PC. If I had $1000 to spend, I'd upgrade my PC first. Oh well, it made for an interesting read at Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-VHS

On every capture card card I can find, the best input they have is S-video. S-Video from what I've read cannot carry a 720x480 progressive signal. I can only assume the cards that capture with S-Video and produce a 480p file are applying an interlacing filter on-the-fly. I want to capture a signal that is not interlaced (i.e. component or hdmi/dvi).

So baring an already existing device or card, anyone hear of any development plans?

[vhelp]

Is 480i the best an average Joe can hope for?

Yes, and no. Anyway.

Yeah. What you need is an HD tuner card.. ie, Fusion; MyHD; Hauppague HVR-1600; or
Pinnacle PCTV Pro; or PCTV Ultima; are a few regular popular brands.

I've tried the HVR-1600, but didn't like a few things about it, (glitchy (HD) mpeg decoder by
hauppauge, plus they glitched their recorded-to-HDD mpegs, too) .. but, if you have QAM
capability, you might be be able to record your QAM signals by using the latest hvr-1600
card and with latest drivers.

Besides the hvr-1600, I switched over to the PCTV Pro (though the Ultima is their upgrade
version which includes QAM capability) but the unit is flawless in every aspect of its HD
recorded mpeg's. The inlcuded tv recording software is bug-free and works very well for
regular HD recordings. But if you want to go a slightly diff route.. ie, .TS; or dvr-ms;
source, then you have to use a 3rd-party software

Either way, this the route you are looking for if you wante 'progressive' captures. The trick
is in the processing of these sources (once captured to your pc) -- you have to post-process
the MPEG's with an scripting language.. ie, AVIsynth or virtualdub and apply one of the
familiar.. ie, IVTC; decomb; de-interlace; etc.

If your source is 1080i, then the frame rate will be 29.970 fps and you can apply a simiple
IVTC to restore back to 24p (progressive) frames -- your goal.

If your source is 720p, then the frame rate will be 59.94 fps and (if Film) you will have to
remove certain *dup* frames, and then apply IVTC to restore back to 24p.

The caviat to the above applications are this.. even though we are in the 21st centry,
we are still idiots in how we (they) provide certain tv source programs over the air waves.
What I mean is, they still butcher/edit the source inside the Telecine. And when they
do this, the source is not IVTC 'able (you can not restore 'cleanly' back to 24p) with the
usual ivtc methods. Instead, more ellaborate means have to be thought of and used in
the (hopes) of restoring (as best as possible) the recorded tv programs back to Film.

As an example. Look at the hit tv series, Friends. This show was shot on Film (4:3AR)
and processed (at some point in time) to telecine, and then was edited inside this
telecine. The series is still this way, *even* on commercial DVD releases -- rediculous!

Still, what you (prob) want is one of those USB hd tuner cards for this. You won't be
capturing in the *triditional* sense, but close. After all, the quality will be much better
because you won't have any (internal) noise added or exhibted from those older gen
analog capture cards.

Good luck, in any case.

-vhelp 4460

[jagabo]

Still, what you (prob) want is one of those USB hd tuner cards for this.

Not for use with a satellite box.

[vhelp]

Ahh, yes.. you are correct. I missed that.

Looks like you are pretty much stuck with post-processing your captured videos then.

Broadcasted (SD) 480i and video contents can be:

Film, 3:2 pulldown / Telecine
Interlace or Video
Progressive (fields)

Basically, 480i content consists of fields (1/2 frames) of images, that are weaved to
make one full frame. And, when you capture these videos, your capture card is doing
the weaving together of the fields, and when you look at the video inside a timeline,
you will see what looks like full frame images.

But, when you carefully look at the images, (motion scenes) you will prob see Interlacing
lines through *most* of the video images, though this will depend on the type of video
broadcasted over SD standards.

In the case of 480i sources, a tv program consisting of,

Film, will have 3:2 telecine patterns: PPPii PPPii PPPii PPPii ...
Interlace/Video, will have: i i i i i i i i i i i i i i ...
Progressive, will have: Tf Bf Tf Bf Tf Bf Tf Bf Tf ...

Where: Tf=top field, and Bt=bottom field. And when woven together, will form a full
frame image when the tv contents (as captured) is a Progressive origin.

The caviat with Film (as I tried to describe earlier) is the posibility that some of the
broadcasted (and captured) video may consist of post-edits inside the telecine. Those
will mostly prove unpredictable IVTC outcomes.

-vhelp 4461

[gigantibyte]

I currently have no problems post editing my captured 480i files. I use VideoReDo for editing, and AutoGK to apply the necessary filters and encode the file to AVI. I'm happy with the results.

Capturing a stream greater than 480i seems to be the "Holy Grail' of home video capture right now, so I thought I would add 3 more crazy and costly options. I only add these to perhaps hopefully give someone ideas.

(5) Convert the component signal to VGA using a device like this: http://www.startech.com/Product/ItemDetail.aspx?productid=VGA2TV2WAY&c=CA

then capture the VGA signal with a VGA/RGB capture card like the PhynxRGB. http://www.ems-imaging.com/catalog/modules.php?name=catalog&file=product_info&cPath=39...1dbd1f958e69dd


(6) Spend $3999.95 (plus tax) and buy a VGA/DVI recorder. http://www.epiphan.com/products/product.php?catid=4&PHPSESSID=7g5b3ttg27lv0oo019r1kioia2


(7) Acquire HDTV broadcasting equipment, connect to component/DVI, and put out a signal that could be picked up by an HDTV tuner card, thereby enabling MPEG-2 streaming to the hard drive.


I like option # 5 if only I could find a decently priced VGA/RGB capture card. The price of the PhynxRGB is only revealed by contacting the dealer, leading me to believe it is very expensive.

[gigantibyte]

Here's a promising card - the Pegasus PCI-Express Capture Card - $1000 (The price isn't bad considering the other options.)

Captures HDMI, Component, S-Video, Composite, and Analog RGB, captures in high resolution, and has it's own on-board encoder called HQ.

http://www.canopus.com/products/Pegasus/index.php
http://www.thomsongrassvalley.com/news/2007/20071112-Pegasus.html

It was supposed to have come out Nov 1, 2007, but I don't see it on sale anywhere.

Please post a link if someone spots it somewhere!

[SHS]

Pegasus Junk it after all it only captures in the same resolution that is being input so there for Up-conversion/Down-conversion is not supported and the card is AVI base on custom Canopus codec.

[gigantibyte]

Pegasus Junk it...

Well, that's a shame. At least seeing the Pegasus gives me hope that something good might come out soon. Unless there's some some law forbidding affordable capture by component. The only thing the Intensity needs a good on-board MPEG-2 encoder. We need Hauppauge to merge with Blackmagic Design or something...

[SHS]

Yes there a forbidding from capture even with component knows CGMS-A

[gigantibyte]

You misunderstand me friend. CGMS-A is not component specific, as it works with S-Video. And not all devices are CGMS-A compliant either (as analog CGMS-A is not inscribed in law.) I know hollywood and other powers would LIKE us not to have component capture technology, but I far as I can find, there is no law against it. Even the dreaded American D.M.A. deals with mostly with making it illegal to circumnavigate copy protection.

Besides, I don't live in the U.S.

[Mysteriouskk]

The Monster X card is pretty good. I captured Burnout Paradise footage at 720p and 60fps.

Check it out on http://www.cgaming.com/test/test03.html (14MB, 30 sec)

[edDV]

You misunderstand me friend. CGMS-A is not component specific, as it works with S-Video. And not all devices are CGMS-A compliant either (as analog CGMS-A is not inscribed in law.) I know hollywood and other powers would LIKE us not to have component capture technology, but I far as I can find, there is no law against it. Even the dreaded American D.M.A. deals with mostly with making it illegal to circumnavigate copy protection.

Besides, I don't live in the U.S.

The more you go on about this the quicker THEY will deal with the analog hole on new tuners. Shut up please.

Just kidding but when easy solutions develop, they will counter. All your expensive equipment will be rendered useless.

Most likey, they will just cut off all analog component HD forcing those of us with older HDTV sets into lower resolutions.

[jagabo]

The Monster X card is pretty good. I captured Burnout Paradise footage at 720p and 60fps.

Nice! And thanks for answering my question about what card you have in the other thread about your "swap fields" problem.

So, do you read Japanese or was the card and software easy enough to figure out?

[Mysteriouskk]

The Monster X card is pretty good. I captured Burnout Paradise footage at 720p and 60fps.

Nice! And thanks for answering my question about what card you have in the other thread about your "swap fields" problem.

So, do you read Japanese or was the card and software easy enough to figure out?

I have no idea how to read japanese. It's pretty easy to setup with the MXCapture program thats out. I capture using MJPEG and it looks alright when I compress it. If you need help setting it up, I can help you. The Intensity Pro is prolly similar though.

[edDV]

The Monster X card is pretty good. I captured Burnout Paradise footage at 720p and 60fps.

Nice! And thanks for answering my question about what card you have in the other thread about your "swap fields" problem.

So, do you read Japanese or was the card and software easy enough to figure out?

I have no idea how to read japanese. It's pretty easy to setup with the MXCapture program thats out. I capture using MJPEG and it looks alright when I compress it. If you need help setting it up, I can help you. The Intensity Pro is prolly similar though.

So describe the card and the driver options. Are we to assume analog component in @720p/59.94? What about 720p/29.97? Is 1080i/29.97 supported?

Which MJPeg codec and what is the bitrate or file size per minute?

Does the card show up in any typical programs (e.g. a WDM driver?)

[Mysteriouskk]

The Monster X card is pretty good. I captured Burnout Paradise footage at 720p and 60fps.

Nice! And thanks for answering my question about what card you have in the other thread about your "swap fields" problem.

So, do you read Japanese or was the card and software easy enough to figure out?

I have no idea how to read japanese. It's pretty easy to setup with the MXCapture program thats out. I capture using MJPEG and it looks alright when I compress it. If you need help setting it up, I can help you. The Intensity Pro is prolly similar though.

So describe the card and the driver options. Are we to assume analog component in @720p/59.94? What about 720p/29.97? Is 1080i/29.97 supported?

Which MJPeg codec and what is the bitrate or file size per minute?

Does the card show up in any typical programs (e.g. a WDM driver?)

It only has D-Terminal inputs, so you'll need to get D-terminal cables specific to the console. You could get an adapter, but I'm not really sure about that.

I believe it records everything at 60fps, but I could be wrong, since I can't read most of the options.

The software comes with picvideo MJPEG codec, and works well. You can change the quality ranging from 0-20, and I'm using 18, which is around 600MB/min for space.

[bassnugget]

You misunderstand me friend. CGMS-A is not component specific, as it works with S-Video. And not all devices are CGMS-A compliant either (as analog CGMS-A is not inscribed in law.) I know hollywood and other powers would LIKE us not to have component capture technology, but I far as I can find, there is no law against it. Even the dreaded American D.M.A. deals with mostly with making it illegal to circumnavigate copy protection.

Besides, I don't live in the U.S.

The more you go on about this the quicker THEY will deal with the analog hole on new tuners. Shut up please.

Just kidding but when easy solutions develop, they will counter. All your expensive equipment will be rendered useless.

Most likey, they will just cut off all analog component HD forcing those of us with older HDTV sets into lower resolutions.

FYI, the cut off date for all analogue outputs on ANY AND EVERY device with HDCP (every HDDVD,Blue-Ray, Set top box.....) is Dec. 31 2013!

[pepegot1]

It will be a couple of years, or so, before HD will have all the hardware/software and computer power to be effective at a reasonable price. If you want aggravation and big bucks-now is the time. Rapacious money hungry vendors push their wares and there are many who respond. I can see this as a learning tool in which one grows with experience, but at a price, but at a price!! I will stay with STD DVD until such time as it becomes practical to switch. To each his own.

[edDV]

You misunderstand me friend. CGMS-A is not component specific, as it works with S-Video. And not all devices are CGMS-A compliant either (as analog CGMS-A is not inscribed in law.) I know hollywood and other powers would LIKE us not to have component capture technology, but I far as I can find, there is no law against it. Even the dreaded American D.M.A. deals with mostly with making it illegal to circumnavigate copy protection.

Besides, I don't live in the U.S.

The more you go on about this the quicker THEY will deal with the analog hole on new tuners. Shut up please.

Just kidding but when easy solutions develop, they will counter. All your expensive equipment will be rendered useless.

Most likey, they will just cut off all analog component HD forcing those of us with older HDTV sets into lower resolutions.

FYI, the cut off date for all analogue outputs on ANY AND EVERY device with HDCP (every HDDVD,Blue-Ray, Set top box.....) is Dec. 31 2013!

Oh my
Do you have a reference for that?

[bassnugget]

You misunderstand me friend. CGMS-A is not component specific, as it works with S-Video. And not all devices are CGMS-A compliant either (as analog CGMS-A is not inscribed in law.) I know hollywood and other powers would LIKE us not to have component capture technology, but I far as I can find, there is no law against it. Even the dreaded American D.M.A. deals with mostly with making it illegal to circumnavigate copy protection.

Besides, I don't live in the U.S.

The more you go on about this the quicker THEY will deal with the analog hole on new tuners. Shut up please.

Just kidding but when easy solutions develop, they will counter. All your expensive equipment will be rendered useless.

Most likey, they will just cut off all analog component HD forcing those of us with older HDTV sets into lower resolutions.

FYI, the cut off date for all analogue outputs on ANY AND EVERY device with HDCP (every HDDVD,Blue-Ray, Set top box.....) is Dec. 31 2013!

Oh my
Do you have a reference for that?

i do. go to http://www.aacsla.com/support/ and download "AACS Interim Adopter Agreement.pdf" and search the PDF for "sunset". very scary!

[jagabo]

i do. go to http://www.aacsla.com/support/ and download "AACS Interim Adopter Agreement.pdf" and search the PDF for "sunset". very scary!

1.7.1... For any Licensed Player... manufactured after December 31, 2010, analog outputs for Decrypted AACS Content shall be limited to SD Interlace Modes Only

1.7.3 2013 Sunset. No Licensed Player that passes Decrypted AACS Content to analog outputs may be manufactured or sold by Adopter after December 31, 2013.

[bassnugget]

AACS are the guys that write the encryption key for HDCP. If you read deeper into their docs you will find that when they release a new encryption algorithm (because someone has hacked the last one) any manufacturer that subscribes to AACS will have to update their units and/or distributed media to use only the new encryption key thus making older decks and media incompatible with the new! I guess we now know what the "Future" use is of the network ports popping up on the back of hi-def decks.

[2Bdecided]

AACS are the guys that write the encryption key for HDCP.

No they're not! AACS is the security for HD-DVD and BluRay discs.

Wikipedia says "HDCP is licensed by Digital Content Protection, a subsidiary of Intel" - nothing to do with AACS.

Cheers,
David.

[bassnugget]

sorry, I guess I did not word my last response carefully. The AACS key does currently only apply to optical media but when the analogue outputs on all consumer devices go away, the digital output, whether HDMI or whatever flavor of the month they come up with next, will be directly impacted by the AACS key. And I can only assume that Cable and dish companies are going to have to use this key for all studio created HD content. Every optical disc sold in 2013 will be HD and every one will include an AACS encryption key. Read the wikipedia entry on AACS and then compare it to the AACS application documents. And look into how Microsoft has influenced the AACS method.