Editing videos with mixed sources

[ShaneJensen]

I have an editing project that involves videos from two different sources. I use Sony Vegas Pro 13 to edit. The majority of my footage is 1080p at 23.97 fps from my Canon SX-260 camera. The second source of videos is only occasional clips from my JVC GZ-HD7 camcorder with specs at 1080i at 29.97 fps. I prefer to render my videos at 1080p at 23.97 fps. What should I do to ensure a proper render from the JVC camcorder footage? Is there any pre-rendering/conversion I should do to the JVC clips prior to importing them into Vegas? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[poisondeathray]

There is no "proper" way to do it, just bad and worse. (Unless you're intending on using the 29.97 interlaced footage as slow motion footage - bob deinterlacing to 59.94 and slowing down 2.5x gives perfect 23.976 with perfect frame alignment)

23.976 isn't evenly divisible into 59.94 samples /sec (for the interlaced footage) , so the only options to make 59.94 "fit" into a 23.976 timeline is by resampling either by some combination of dropping frames, blending frames, or motion interpolation of frames. It's not pretty because you will get jerky playback, blurry jerky playback, or globby edge artifacts to some extent. All those methods have various pros/cons. Depending on the project specifics/background info, one way might be preferred. Or there can be some editing techniques or tricks that you can use to minimize the problems

Vegas can use the 1st two methods, so you can try them out and see which you like. It was discussed in your other thread. When you have smart resample disabled , it will drop or duplicate frames. When enabled, it will drop or introduced blended frames. It cannot use the 3rd method without 3rd party plugins like twixtor

[ShaneJensen]

There is no "proper" way to do it, just bad and worse. (Unless you're intending on using the 29.97 interlaced footage as slow motion footage - bob deinterlacing to 59.94 and slowing down 2.5x gives perfect 23.976 with perfect frame alignment)

23.976 isn't evenly divisible into 59.94 samples /sec (for the interlaced footage) , so the only options to make 59.94 "fit" into a 23.976 timeline is by resampling either by some combination of dropping frames, blending frames, or motion interpolation of frames. It's not pretty because you will get jerky playback, blurry jerky playback, or globby edge artifacts to some extent. All those methods have various pros/cons. Depending on the project specifics/background info, one way might be preferred. Or there can be some editing techniques or tricks that you can use to minimize the problems

Vegas can use the 1st two methods, so you can try them out and see which you like. It was discussed in your other thread. When you have smart resample disabled , it will drop or duplicate frames. When enabled, it will drop or introduced blended frames. It cannot use the 3rd method without 3rd party plugins like twixtor

Hmmm.... That sounds very messy in any solution. That's a drag. I also just remembered that I have another project from Christmas Eve that I still have yet to do with footage from the same two cameras. But this one the situation is reversed. The majority of the footage was recorded with the JVC GZ-HD7 1080i 29.97 fps and secondary footage with the Canon SX-260 1080p 23.97 fps. This one will be rendered for Blu-ray, so I shouldn't have any trouble upconverting the SX-260 footage to that of the JVC's 1080i, is that correct?

While I'm on this mixed sources subject, there are times when I'm mixing footage from my iPhone 6 and the Canon SX-260. Unlike the situation with the Canon and JVC camcorders with the one being progressive and the other interlaced, both iPhone and Canon are progressive, however, there is still the same issue with the frame rate. iPhone has 29.97 while Canon has 23.97. So I suppose despite both being progressive, I will still have the frame issues you described above?

I notice Casey Neistat on YouTube mixes footage between his Canon 70D, Canon G7X, and iPhone 6 and his final renders are 23.97 fps. His iPhone 6 clips do not seem jerky in any of the ways you described. He does use Final Cut Pro on a Mac unlike me using Sony Vegas with Windows 7. Don't know if that has anything to do with it. I did some tests with rendering my iPhone 6 clips down to 23.97 fps a week or two ago and noticed that jerky artifacts. Was a bit frustrated. Wish there was a more intuitive solution with better results for those of us who mix sources like this.

Thank you for your response.

[poisondeathray]

Hmmm.... That sounds very messy in any solution. That's a drag. I also just remembered that I have another project from Christmas Eve that I still have yet to do with footage from the same two cameras. But this one the situation is reversed. The majority of the footage was recorded with the JVC GZ-HD7 1080i 29.97 fps and secondary footage with the Canon SX-260 1080p 23.97 fps. This one will be rendered for Blu-ray, so I shouldn't have any trouble upconverting the SX-260 footage to that of the JVC's 1080i, is that correct?

It boils down to math. Yes, math can be a drag

If the majority of the footage is "video" (the interlaced footage), then that's what you should be using

Technically you would make a 1080i 29.97 BD . The 23.976 sections will have "hard telecine" which is 23.976p content in 59.94 fields/sec or 3:2 pulldown. Some hardware setups will display it properly, others will just deinterlace those sections (it's HW dependent). If those sections are deinterlaced instead of having proper pulldown removal , it will lose roughly 1/2 the vertical resolution and play jerky in those sections

While I'm on this mixed sources subject, there are times when I'm mixing footage from my iPhone 6 and the Canon SX-260. Unlike the situation with the Canon and JVC camcorders with the one being progressive and the other interlaced, both iPhone and Canon are progressive, however, there is still the same issue with the frame rate. iPhone has 29.97 while Canon has 23.97. So I suppose despite both being progressive, I will still have the frame issues you described above?

Those frame rate issues will be analogous, but iphone will have a base VFR framerate (variable framerate) , not CFR (constant framerate) - so it can be even more potential problems

I notice Casey Neistat on YouTube mixes footage between his Canon 70D, Canon G7X, and iPhone 6 and his final renders are 23.97 fps. His iPhone 6 clips do not seem jerky in any of the ways you described. He does use Final Cut Pro on a Mac unlike me using Sony Vegas with Windows 7. Don't know if that has anything to do with it. I did some tests with rendering my iPhone 6 clips down to 23.97 fps a week or two ago and noticed that jerky artifacts. Was a bit frustrated. Wish there was a more intuitive solution with better results for those of us who mix sources like this.

It has nothing to do with FCP/X vs. Vegas or anything else. It's a fundamental math problem.

Actually, I take that back - FCPX does have motion interpolation (the 3rd method), but it's not always that great (can be riddled with artifacts) . If you point out a link to a video that mixes the footage I'll have a look if you want

I don't know who that is or what type of content is being displayed but you can imagine that some types shots will display/emphasize the problem more, while others will minimize the problems. Think of a low motion indoor studio setup like talking heads - that will minimize

[budwzr]

Vegas has a "Playback Rate", as well as "Frame Rate", if you right click the Event it's in "Properties". IOW, you can playback a different framerate within the same Event. You might be able to find some middle ground between the two.

If you imagine the two sprockets on a bike. The wheels turn at the same speed, but the sprockets do not. You do ideally need the framerates to be divisible by a common denominator, like PDR said, but give it a try and see if you can fudge it.

So Vegas will automatically conform everything to the project setting, What I'm mentioning is where to look to override what Vegas thinks. It's not in the most intuitive place.

There's an open source conversion utility that runs in MeGui, http://www.spirton.com/tag/megui/, supposedly can convert most anything to 60fps but maintain the original framerate.