Do i need amp for old speakers?

[therock003]

My wiring is correct, and i am also certain that subwoofer is disabled from the menu since i dont have a woofer on my setup. It is a 5.0 setup. Since there is no woofer, where is the .1 channel supposed to pass through?

[jagabo]

If you have the sub output disabled the LFE should go to both the left and right front channels.

[therock003]

I think in that test file, i could only hear it on left. Is it certain it had correct chanel information? Anyway what i thought of is this. I have another set of speakers which are active. They are Sony as well, and they are active. Maybe i can use this one as subwoofer, so there's no lfe to either front speaker, so less bass on the faulty speaker? Plus i get to put the Woofer next to the fault one, so whatever hiss or noise there is, the low frequencies of the sub should mask over it, right?

Since i have never connected a sub before, i need to ask a couple of questions first.

-The receivers output for sub is a simple 3.5 jack right?
-Since the Active speaker i am speaking of, has rca connections as input (Red/White) I will be connecting an RCA Y cable to connect it receiver. Will that give me any problems?
-Is there a chance to damage the speaker i'm going to use, or the receiver? As i said its an active speaker, meaning of course it takes power directly from the socket of the mains, so i dont think electricity specifications such as watt/impendance etc matter on this one right?

Does the labeled position of spekaer matter? If a speaker has a sticker on the back that says left, does it matter if you use it on the right, as long as you dont confuse the cable and connect wires on the right of the receiver as well?

If you can take this last batch of questions, i think i'm ready and set for action!

[EDIT] PS: In case anybody cares, the speaker i'm going to use as a subwoofer is the Sony SA-VA10. Its old as well, but somewhat newer compared to the 5.0 bundle i'm using. Its one of the tall ones on the picture below. Compared to my front ground speakers is almost twice taller, and half as thin in width.

[jagabo]

I think in that test file, i could only hear it on left. Is it certain it had correct chanel information?

It works on my system. Note that during the LFE portion of the test the voice is on the left front channel. The low frequency rumble is on the LFE.

Anyway what i thought of is this. I have another set of speakers which are active. They are Sony as well, and they are active. Maybe i can use this one as subwoofer, so there's no lfe to either front speaker, so less bass on the faulty speaker?

That might help.

Since i have never connected a sub before, i need to ask a couple of questions first.

-The receivers output for sub is a simple 3.5 jack right?

It depends on your receiver. On my it's an RCA jack. In any case, it should be clearly labeled on your receiver. A 3.5" jack should be line level like RCA. Unless it's a headphone jack!

-Since the Active speaker i am speaking of, has rca connections as input (Red/White) I will be connecting an RCA Y cable to connect it receiver. Will that give me any problems?

That should be fine. If you only use one of the speakers you only need one connection though. Might as well use both for more bass.

-Is there a chance to damage the speaker i'm going to use,

Yes, if you play it too loud. Start with the volume control on the powered speaker at its lowest setting.

or the receiver?

There shouldn't be any problem there.

As i said its an active speaker, meaning of course it takes power directly from the socket of the mains, so i dont think electricity specifications such as watt/impendance etc matter on this one right?

RCA connectors are all line level. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level

Does the labeled position of spekaer matter? If a speaker has a sticker on the back that says left, does it matter if you use it on the right, as long as you dont confuse the cable and connect wires on the right of the receiver as well?

It doesn't matter which speaker is on the left or right. It's easier to keep track of wiring if you keep them on the "correct" side. Note that rear speakers are often not full range (Dolby Pro Logic only encoded up to 7KHz on the rear channels so full range speakers weren't necessary in those days). So don't use the rears as the fronts unless you've verified they're all full range.

[therock003]

Since i have never connected a sub before, i need to ask a couple of questions first.

-The receivers output for sub is a simple 3.5 jack right?

It depends on your receiver. On my it's an RCA jack. In any case, it should be clearly labeled on your receiver. A 3.5" jack should be line level like RCA. Unless it's a headphone jack!

It seems like one, but the jack doesnt go all the way in so i didnt force it, to prevent any damage. What do you make of it?



It also has direct rca out, but it labels it as pre out. I think its for an external amp in order to add to additional channels. But since my speakers are active, maybe i could use it directly. Although then i don't know if i could set this speaker as sub, cause i think it will automatically extend it to 7.1.

-Since the Active speaker i am speaking of, has rca connections as input (Red/White) I will be connecting an RCA Y cable to connect it receiver. Will that give me any problems?

That should be fine. If you only use one of the speakers you only need one connection though. Might as well use both for more bass.

And put them next to each other you mean right? Cause woofers are supposed to stay on one side i think (usually on the right) and not each side, unlike every other set of speakers. Sadly i cant do that, cause the other speakers connects with the active one via a proprietary cable that i have lost (made a thread couple of years back) and i don't think there's a way to connect it. But it could be a great idea.

-Is there a chance to damage the speaker i'm going to use,

Yes, if you play it too loud. Start with the volume control on the powered speaker at its lowest setting.

I don't understand, how can active speakers that get their power directly from the socket get damaged? Since there's not a chance to not get the correct amount, either too little, or too much, shouldn't the manufacturer put a volume setting that has a maximum that is safe from damage?

Does the labeled position of spekaer matter? If a speaker has a sticker on the back that says left, does it matter if you use it on the right, as long as you dont confuse the cable and connect wires on the right of the receiver as well?

It doesn't matter which speaker is on the left or right. It's easier to keep track of wiring if you keep them on the "correct" side. Note that rear speakers are often not full range (Dolby Pro Logic only encoded up to 7KHz on the rear channels so full range speakers weren't necessary in those days). So don't use the rears as the fronts unless you've verified they're all full range.

No I'm only going to switch places with the front speakers with one another so i can place the damaged speaker next to woofer. Rear speakers (surround) are going to stay where they are. Or are you referring to what i mentioned earlier, that i have identified them as large giving them more range so they sound more frequently? Is this bad, in terms of possible damage? Giving small speakers a wider range of frequencies, so they can play lower sounds as well?

[jagabo]

-The receivers output for sub is a simple 3.5 jack right?... It seems like one, but the jack doesnt go all the way in so i didnt force it, to prevent any damage. What do you make of it?

I don't see a 3.5 mm sub output.

It also has direct rca out, but it labels it as pre out. I think its for an external amp in order to add to additional channels. But since my speakers are active, maybe i could use it directly.

Use that.

Might as well use both for more bass.

And put them next to each other you mean right?

They don't have to go next to each other.

Cause woofers are supposed to stay on one side

True sub-woofers can go anywhere. You can't tell what direction very low frequencies are coming from.

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/speaker-setup-guidelines/subwoofer-placement-guidelines

I don't understand, how can active speakers that get their power directly from the socket get damaged? Since there's not a chance to not get the correct amount, either too little, or too much, shouldn't the manufacturer put a volume setting that has a maximum that is safe from damage?

I wouldn't count on it.

Rear speakers (surround) are going to stay where they are... i have identified them as large giving them more range so they sound more frequently? Is this bad, in terms of possible damage? Giving small speakers a wider range of frequencies, so they can play lower sounds as well?

They are more likely to distort. And damage is possible. Small rear speakers cannot produce very low frequencies. So there's no need to give it to them.

[therock003]

I don't see a 3.5 mm sub output.


Use that.

But if i use the pre-out how can i configure them as subs? Instead of 5.1, i think i will be getting 7.0. So this little hole that looks like a 3.5, what is it actually? Isnt there some kind of converter adapter that will turn rca, into this little jack?

It works on my system. Note that during the LFE portion of the test the voice is on the left front channel. The low frequency rumble is on the LFE.

You mean that bass runs on both speakers, but the voice saying it is the lfe channel sounds only on the left speaker, right? Cause i now can see that much.

[jagabo]

But if i use the pre-out how can i configure them as subs? Instead of 5.1, i think i will be getting 7.0.

The sub pre-out is a mono signal. Run it to both the front left and right inputs on the powered speakers. The powered speaker will the bass (that's all that will be in the signal) to the front speakers.

So this little hole that looks like a 3.5, what is it actually? Isnt there some kind of converter adapter that will turn rca, into this little jack?

I don't know what hole you're talking about. Where is it on the image you posted?

It works on my system. Note that during the LFE portion of the test the voice is on the left front channel. The low frequency rumble is on the LFE.

You mean that bass runs on both speakers, but the voice saying it is the lfe channel sounds only on the left speaker, right? Cause i now can see that much.

The AVI file has six audio tracks. The low frequency rumble is on the LFE track. The voice announcing the test is on the left channel. Your amp will decide where to send the LFE track based on how it's set up. If you have it set up to output 5.1 the LFE track will go to the sub output. If you have it set up to output 5.0 it will get routed to the front left and right channels.

[sanlyn]

Interesting project, but in passing did anyone notice the inputs on back of that a/v receiver? The only analog inputs are composite video (!). Otherwise, HDMI only. Manufacturer's still think everyone uses $40 VCR's and $30 DVD players. Did they really think I'd throw away my $1100 DVD player with its component outputs? Fat chance.

[therock003]

I don't know what hole you're talking about. Where is it on the image you posted?

The one you mention as a mono pre-out possibly. If you notice at the frame it says pre-out a couple of times. One is a black hole saying subwoofer pre-out, and then there's an RCA pre-out that says surround back.

If i connect my speakers to the latter (which i can do directly since its rca from both ends), i get to use them as back surround thus going from 5.0 to 7.0. But i want to use them as 5.1 so i need the woofer pre-out. But i dont know what goes into this little black hole...

I hope i'm not confusing you, but i\ve never used a sub, and i dont understand what type of connection it uses with the receiver.

[Hoser Rob]

What's confusing is that when you are troubleshooting it is very important to only change one thing at a time. You're changing so many things it's hard to follow.

At this point I think you need to start looking at the manual which should have come with your receiver. If you didn't get one, download it from their web site. It's there, I looked.

The sub connection is mono, and it does not use a 3.5mm headphone jack. Neither do any other receivers. It outputs a full range signal to the sub since the subs have their own built in filter to cut off the treble. The main speaker outputs are supposed to cut the lows off.

BTW I actually don't agree you can put a sub anywhere, but corner placement often works surprisingly well.

Those pre out jacks are for zone 2 use. You could plug them into an active speaker but you aren't going to get any filters or surround effects. It's a full range line level signal.

I feel I should mention that under no circumstances should you connect the speaker output to the input of an active speaker.

I'm also losing interest in discussing the issue with someone who hasn't even tried to read the manual.

[therock003]

Interesting project, but in passing did anyone notice the inputs on back of that a/v receiver? The only analog inputs are composite video (!). Otherwise, HDMI only. Manufacturer's still think everyone uses $40 VCR's and $30 DVD players. Did they really think I'd throw away my $1100 DVD player with its component outputs? Fat chance.

Its a budget model, and it misses out on a lot of connections, but personally i dont care for it, since i only use digital equipment. But you're right, if you want to use componenet you're forced into buying something more expensive.

What's confusing is that when you are troubleshooting it is very important to only change one thing at a time. You're changing so many things it's hard to follow.

At this point I think you need to start looking at the manual which should have come with your receiver. If you didn't get one, download it from their web site. It's there, I looked.

The sub connection is mono, and it does not use a 3.5mm headphone jack. Neither do any other receivers. It outputs a full range signal to the sub since the subs have their own built in filter to cut off the treble. The main speaker outputs are supposed to cut the lows off.

BTW I actually don't agree you can put a sub anywhere, but corner placement often works surprisingly well.

Those pre out jacks are for zone 2 use. You could plug them into an active speaker but you aren't going to get any filters or surround effects. It's a full range line level signal.

I feel I should mention that under no circumstances should you connect the speaker output to the input of an active speaker.

I'm also losing interest in discussing the issue with someone who hasn't even tried to read the manual.

I have read the manual mate, what i'm asking is either things that it doesnt cover, or maybe things that does but i dont comprehend due to lack of basic knowledge. You got to agree that the use of an active speaker as a subwoofer, is unconventional and is not covered in any manual. Its just what someone with lack of money will try to do. I'm only trying to take advantage of whatever old speakers i have in order to achieve maximum results. And it is a process so far...

I do appreciate all your guys help of course, that goes without saying.

[therock003]

It's ok i found the last piece of information that i needed. I was looking for an RCA to mono sub Y cable. I now have to find something like that in stores, otherwise, i'll have to makes one myself.

[jagabo]

Your sub per-out looks like an RCA connector to me. For a quick test, just plug an RCA cable between the sub output and the powered speakers.

[therock003]

Your sub per-out looks like an RCA connector to me. For a quick test, just plug an RCA cable between the sub output and the powered speakers.

Surprisingly it fits. (It seemed small when i tried the 3.5 jack) You've got a keen eye. And here i was browsing at custom y-cables!

Does it matter though which end i'm going to use? Red or white?

[jagabo]

Does it matter though which end i'm going to use? Red or white?

No, it doesn't matter which you use. The two halfs are identical.

[sanlyn]

Its a budget model, and it misses out on a lot of connections, but personally i dont care for it, since i only use digital equipment. But you're right, if you want to use componenet you're forced into buying something more expensive.

Nope, it's disappearing from the big boys as well. Guess I got my DENON just in time, but there are other means of keeping high-end gear alive (Not at BestBuy, though).

Good work. Frankly, speaker setup up with my pricey DENON wasn't that much easier, but I had help from Audyssey and 200+ pages of user guide. But it still ate up the better part of a whole weekend.

[therock003]

Oh man, this speaker doesnt put out well as a woofer, cause the woofer part is on the other speaker whose cable i do not have! Always unlucky!

Furthermore, i dont have the remote and on the front buttons it does not let you set bass and treble levels. I searched the manual thoroughly and it doesnt give an option to override, and it only points to the controller to set these levels.

BTW is 100Hz crossover a good default value for the sub, or should i set it lower?

If i unscrew the frame behind the proprietary connector and post a picture, will it be easy for someone to notice the connections?

[jagabo]

Cable: http://www.tomscables.com/SA-VA-1_c8.htm

The appropriate crossover frequency depends on the sub and the other speakers. Ideally, you want the sub to take over where the other speakers drop off. The 6" drivers in your main speakers are probably good down to 80 to 100 Hz. But if you're trying to offload bass to your powered speaker to reduce the voice coil scraping in your fronts, you'll probably want to set the crossover higher.

[sanlyn]

150hZ to 250Hz is the range I've seen in the vast majority of specs (260 might be a bit high). As jagabo says, it depends on how low you're smaller speakers can get -- and the optimal range of your subwoofers. A 6" has reached its limits by 80 to 100Hz if it hasn't been specifically designed as a subwoofer. and even a subwoofer that size would be doing pretty well to output 50Hz cleanly without doubling. With a regular 6" speaker its output would have started to decline anyway by 100Hz. The idea behind a smooth crossover is to match the rolloff rates of the two speakers involved. and at the intended frequency and with complimentary phasing from each. Those factors are impossible to judge by ear.

For most listeners, bass below 150Hz sounds non-directional, and 200Hz wouldn't be unreasonable. By 50 or 60 Hz, you're talking about bass that is more "felt" than "heard". You might not think there's much difference between 100Hz and 150Hz, but it's there. 100Hz is 2/3 an octave below 150. Most loudspeakers already have a gradual rolloff beginning at 150 to 100 Hz -- either that, or they have a natural impedance peak at roughly the same frequencies to make them "sound" as if they have lots of bass when, in fact, anything below that peak rolls off very sharply. The average budget 8" to 10" loudspeaker used as a woofer in a 2-way or 3-way enclosure isn't outputting very strong bass at 50Hz -- by that frequency, it's just part of most multi-way speakers' rolloff. So if 100Hz just happens to be in the same rolloff region for the speakers you're trying to match, you won't accomplish much.

In other words, try a higher crossover. Probably 200Hz.

[MOVIEGEEK]

Those Sony speakers are the problem, they are self-powered and use proprietary connectors. Save your money and get a real 5.1 speaker system, at the very least a real(self powered/at least 8" woofer/75 watt amp) subwoofer.

Something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-NS-SP1800BL-5-1-Channel-Theater-Speaker/dp/B001AVRD62/ref...g_bs_172563_16

http://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-10-Inch-Monitor-Subwoofer/dp/B0002KVQBA/ref=sr_1_1?s=...ords=subwoofer

[sanlyn]

Agreed. And the crossover components already in the SONY boxes will be another problem. You need a proper 5.1 system.

[therock003]

Guys i know that my current setup is the problem, but for the time being i cant afford something better. For a woofer, i hear Velodyne CHT and sunfire SDS are some of the best choices in the "under a thousand" category. The first goes near 700 euro for 12 inch and the latter around 550.

I also need to replace my front speakers, since the left one is damaged, and that's another 300 or more. Also someone told me that LCR go together so its bet to replace the center speaker as well, if i go for new front ones. Is that true? Cause i like the way the center sounds at least.

[jagabo]

someone told me that LCR go together so its bet to replace the center speaker as well, if i go for new front ones. Is that true?

For optimal sound you want the three to match. But it's not a complete disaster if they don't match. The kind of problem you'll have is the timbre changing as sounds pan from one speaker to the other. For example, if an actor says something in the center of the screen, then walks walks off to the side and says something else, his voice may sound a little different.

I'd try using the unpowered front speaker from you Sony system as a replacement for you scraping front left speaker. It won't be optimal but neither are your other no-cost options. You'll just have to make your own connector. You can use a 1.5 volt battery and a pair of wires to test which pins are which. Listen for a click when connect the battery. One pair of pins should is probably the sub, another pair the main speakers. You can get some crimp on connectors and some shrink wrap tubing for a few bucks.

For example:

http://www.amazon.com/Accessories--D-Sub-Hi-Density-Female-Plated/dp/B007R2JE42/

Those aren't very sturdy (they are not designed for use outside a shell) but a few layers of heat shrink tubing will firm them up well enough for your purposes. Even better would be if you can find the female molex shell that matches the connector on the speaker.

[therock003]

I'd try using the unpowered front speaker from you Sony system as a replacement for you scraping front left speaker. It won't be optimal but neither are your other no-cost options. You'll just have to make your own connector. You can use a 1.5 volt battery and a pair of wires to test which pins are which. Listen for a click when connect the battery. One pair of pins should is probably the sub, another pair the main speakers. You can get some crimp on connectors and some shrink wrap tubing for a few bucks.

For example:

http://www.amazon.com/Accessories--D-Sub-Hi-Density-Female-Plated/dp/B007R2JE42/

Those aren't very sturdy (they are not designed for use outside a shell) but a few layers of heat shrink tubing will firm them up well enough for your purposes. Even better would be if you can find the female molex shell that matches the connector on the speaker.

Oh man, i understand none of that. I'll just have my neighbor who knows some stuff help me out.