VideoHelp Forum
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 17 of 17
Thread
  1. Member Theresa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Illinois
    Search Comp PM
    Hi,
    I've been out of the loop for awhile. A few years ago, I converted my VHS-C tapes to DVD, with a great deal of help from ones on this site as well as a couple of others. I used Premier Elements 2, using a Canopus capture device and a good JVC VCR. With my limited knowledge, they turned out ok, though a little shaky in places. I am now using an iMac. I'm thinking of going through the tapes again in hopes that I get even better quality.
    I keep hearing that DVD is on it's way out. If that is the case, should I re-capture these tapes to a different format? Or just enjoy the fact they are done???? Or even convert the DVD's to a more desired format??

    Thanks!
    Quote Quote  
  2. Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    Since VHS-C is standard definition, a high bit rate DVD is still the recomendation. DVD will be around for a long time because it is backwards compatible with Blu-ray players.

    One idea might be to buy a large external hard drive for storage, and capture and archive all of your tapes in a lossless format such as Huffyuv or Lagarith. This will futureproof your videos as you can convert to other formats in the future without loss in quality.
    Quote Quote  
  3. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Freedonia
    Search Comp PM
    I would NOT put a lot of faith in the "X is going away tomorrow!" statements that various tech writers make. You can still buy CDs even though for several years now some people have been claiming that they will disappear any day now. You can still buy VCDs in Asia even though the format has been overtaken by DVDs for about a decade now.

    According to one source I found, VHS-C is equivalent to VHS. If correct then there is no reason to try to save them in anything above DVD quality. Trying to get HD out of any VHS video tape is likely to result in a great disappointment to you unless your standards of what is quality are lower than most people's. I'm not an expert with DV but I have seen some people recommend using it as a storage format. If you aren't comfortable with DVD then maybe you should look into that. But you need a ton of disk space to do that which means you'll need to add external drives to your iMac.
    Quote Quote  
  4. Member edDV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Northern California, USA
    Search Comp PM
    If you saved your DV-AVI files from the Canopus ADVC capture, you won't get much improvement capturing to a different format. This would be particularly an issue with a Mac OSX that isn't easily huffyuv or Lagarith compatible. The Mac works fine with a Canopus ADVC if your iMAC has a Firewire port.

    A key issue is keep the archive interlace. Deinterlace is highly destructve especially with non-timebase corrected VHS. The main improvement would come from a recapture with a full frame TBC in the path ahead of the ADVC in the capture chain. That would probably smooth out the "shaky" portions but also stabilize the pixel alignment for better filtering and/or encoding.

    By DVD do you mean you stored your DV-AVI capture files to DVDR data discs (20 min per layer)? Or, did you encode the DV files to MPeg2? If so, at what bit rate? You should also be backing these up to hard disc media. Store a copy off site.

    You may want to have one tape transferred at a premium dub house so you can compare to your current result for the same tape.
    Recommends: Kiva.org - Loans that change lives.
    http://www.kiva.org/about
    Quote Quote  
  5. Member Theresa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Illinois
    Search Comp PM
    Thank you all, Vidd, jman & edDV, for your replies - VERY helpful. I'm very rusty - having to brush up on my video terminology. edDV, stupidly, I did not save my DV-AVI files - just still too inexperienced at the time. And my iMac has the 9-conductor Firewire port but lacking the 6-conductor port that came with my Canopus ADVC. (could I substitute, using a cable with the proper connector or via a FireWire hub?) I could still use my ancient PC, I suppose, but was hoping I could use my iMac, as it is much faster.
    I have a JVC HR-S8900U VCR, which has a TBC built in as well as a separate Datavideo TBC in the loop. But it seems when I ran them together I have massive shaking. When I used only the vcr's TBC, that's when I got the best results - strangely, and disappointingly, I didn't get as good results turning off the vcr's TBC and having the Datavideo running.
    I have long since forgotten what files Premier encoded the VOB files to - I was just happy to be able to stick the DVD's in the vcr and they worked. I didn't foresee going back and improve on the quality at a later time. *sigh* Bit rate? I was such a noob. [and obviously still am] If I do go back and redo these, I will have an external drive dedicated to JUST these files.
    Interestingly, I did have Lord Smurf take care of a couple of tapes for me that had extreme 'flagging' that I couldn't correct. The quality was similar to what I was able to produce beyond that issue.
    I am so appreciative of the time and interest you three have shown in response to my question. Thank you SO much!
    Quote Quote  
  6. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    dFAQ.us/lordsmurf
    Search Comp PM
    VHS-C = VHS in a smaller shell. JVC VCRs also don't play them very well.

    The other problem is VHS is inherently full of flaws. To make it "better", you'll have to do filtering. Blu-ray now allows for H.264 and higher MPEG-2 bitrates. But even that isn't a solves-all.

    I still have the notes and two sample clips from your project. I don't really see a way that those could be improved. (One of the clips could be tweaked by a more modern method, but it's not going to be a major improvement. Honestly, I'm not even sure it would be a minor improvement.) In addition to everything mentioned, it's also shaky handheld footage.
    Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
    FAQs: Best Blank DiscsBest TBCsBest VCRs for captureRestore VHS
    Quote Quote  
  7. Member Theresa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Illinois
    Search Comp PM
    I'm so glad, Lord Smurf, that you were able to correct those tapes - it was heart breaking to loose even a little footage. Yes, I didn't always hold that camera too still. But the jittering beyond that issue at times is very distracting. If I can't improve the quality, I'll leave well enough along. Although, if I can find the time, I might redo them, if only just have them in the safest form to archive. Would that be capturing the VHS-C tapes again or just uploading the DVD's? And at that point, what's the best way to archive them? I once read that transferring them to mini-DV tapes was the best.
    I had done an extreme amount of homework and pestering everyone on this site for weeks before I started this project. I was told that the JVC HR-S8900U was the best I could get for my project. Was that bad info? If so, what VCR would have been best? Does it matter what program is used to capture the tapes? What bit rate is best? Sorry - I'm becoming a pain again.
    Quote Quote  
  8. Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by Theresa View Post
    And my iMac has the 9-conductor Firewire port but lacking the 6-conductor port that came with my Canopus ADVC. (could I substitute, using a cable with the proper connector or via a FireWire hub?) I could still use my ancient PC, I suppose, but was hoping I could use my iMac, as it is much faster.
    I think all you need is a 9-pin Firewire 800 to 6-pin Firewire 400 cable such as

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200730

    to connect the Canopus ADVC to a new iMac.

    Someday, it may be possible to obtain super-resolution upscaling from analog tapes. When this happens you will need to recapture the tapes, because the motion-compensated inter-frame encoding methods used to store video on a DVD eliminate much of the information that could theoretically be used to obtain super-resolution. VHS recordings can also be significantly improved with color correcting and recovery techniques that use the luma signal to increase the resolution of the chroma. I would carefully store the tapes while these technologies are developed.
    Quote Quote  
  9. Member edDV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Northern California, USA
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by Theresa View Post
    Thank you all, Vidd, jman & edDV, for your replies - VERY helpful. I'm very rusty - having to brush up on my video terminology. edDV, stupidly, I did not save my DV-AVI files - just still too inexperienced at the time. And my iMac has the 9-conductor Firewire port but lacking the 6-conductor port that came with my Canopus ADVC. (could I substitute, using a cable with the proper connector or via a FireWire hub?) I could still use my ancient PC, I suppose, but was hoping I could use my iMac, as it is much faster.
    GV-Canopus have this document on use of ADVC products with Firewire 800 (iMAC) port.
    http://www.grassvalley.com/docs/Application_Notes/professional/advc/PRV-4077M_ADVC_Fir...Wire800_AN.pdf
    Recommends: Kiva.org - Loans that change lives.
    http://www.kiva.org/about
    Quote Quote  
  10. Member edDV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Northern California, USA
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by Theresa View Post
    I'm so glad, Lord Smurf, that you were able to correct those tapes - it was heart breaking to loose even a little footage. Yes, I didn't always hold that camera too still. But the jittering beyond that issue at times is very distracting. If I can't improve the quality, I'll leave well enough along. Although, if I can find the time, I might redo them, if only just have them in the safest form to archive. Would that be capturing the VHS-C tapes again or just uploading the DVD's? And at that point, what's the best way to archive them? I once read that transferring them to mini-DV tapes was the best.
    If it were me, I'd capture again and archive as *.dv or dv.mov Quicktime (i.e no conversion). For lossless storage you have these options

    1. hard disc (at least copied to two separate drives)
    2. DVDR data disc (holds about 20 min of DV video).
    3. MiniDV tape (problem here is finding a playback deck in the distant future).

    I do #1 and #3. Every few years I dub the disc files to fresh hard drives. Expect archive hard drives to need backing up every five or so years. Reliability gets worse and lubricants begin to fail.

    Originally Posted by Theresa View Post
    Does it matter what program is used to capture the tapes? What bit rate is best? Sorry - I'm becoming a pain again.
    Goal for archive file is to cap DV format with no change. This can be done with iMovie or Quicktime Pro. Capture as DV then output as DV Quicktime. Archive these files. Then encode a watchable format such as DVD MPeg2 (e.g. Toast) at bit rates above 8000 Kbps for best quality. DVD max bitrate is around 9500 Kbps CBR (aka one hour mode). Avoid deinterlace except for Youtube. In that case export to h.264/aac (iMove deinterlaces all h.264).
    Recommends: Kiva.org - Loans that change lives.
    http://www.kiva.org/about
    Quote Quote  
  11. Member Theresa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Illinois
    Search Comp PM
    Thank you, ejolsen, for the link!
    Again, edDV, you come to my rescue. I think I may start this massive project again, now that I have a little more know-how. Also, I may be getting Final Cut Pro X soon. It probably won't make much difference with something as un-technical as home movies, though. Thank you for the detailed instructions. These are what I need as I'm so unacquainted with the terms and shortcuts discussed here. Got to go back and do my homework.
    Quote Quote  
  12. Remember those old school DAT tapes? (You could store like up to 2GB for backup on them.) That is kind of what a VHS Tape is... it looks like the Native format for a VHS recording is AVI to me (Audio-Video Interleave)... but maybe an mpeg. (You can kind of tell from the difference in the compression from an SP recording Vs. an EP recording.)
    Quote Quote  
  13. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Deep in the Heart of Texas
    Search PM
    @ZeldaBoy, not only are you necro-posting, but that is soooooo off-topic (and ultimately, mis-directional and not fully understanding of the technology) as to be the OPPOSITE of a helpful late post.

    Why even post on this thread at all? (That's a rhetorical question. It doesn't need to be answered)

    Scott
    Quote Quote  
  14. OK Then to the original poster: I would encode them as .avi at SVCD quality - that's the best rip for VHS or "regular" TV. (640x480) it will take about a gigabyte for an hour and a half of video and will pretty much be lossless. You might want to try just capturing a movie first thru your TV card at SVCD. Mpeg-2 or mpeg-4 (DVD Quality) Is a little high for a standard VHS, especially when you consider the audio source. If you have pretty good audio to rip, I would go 192 Kbps on it... that's about the best it will sound through a good sound system...

    @Cornucopia Sorry about the "necro" post - call me a necromancer I wasn't paying attention to the date. I was searching for "What file-type is VHS?" and there was no answer... this post came the closest to my search tho'.

    @Scott I used to have an old AMD 700 with a TV Tuner and when I backed up the movie Existenz from cable at SVCD there was no quality loss... if you are moaning over a pixel I didn't notice it on the replay. It sounds to me like you are quoting from manuals over files you've actually made...

    PS - back then we didn't have h.264 and we still got perfect back ups. Well as perfect as the vhs was anywayz... we'd still have some scrolling from an old tape... h.264 is already using the double pixel trick anyhoo.
    Last edited by ZeldaBoy; 15th Jun 2014 at 01:00.
    Quote Quote  
  15. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Deep in the Heart of Texas
    Search PM
    ???

    SVCD quality is anything BUT lossless. It is 1/2 D1, which is CLOSE to the quality of VHS, but it's already compromising on the horizontal resolution and on the bitrate necessary for non-blocky quality. Plus, encoding to AVI is rather pointless since the OP was on a Mac.

    This site has repeatedly supplied generous, well-though-out and thorough info regarding both the capping (with file storage) and the re-compression (for playback/distribution) of VHS material. It can be summarized into 2 tiers:

    1. Best quality: cap using high quality analog capture card/board/box and save as Uncompressed/Losslessly-compressed (@~75-150Mbps for YUV422 depending). Then after subsequent lossless/smart editing & then processing/filtering (usually in that order), the result would have a copy made that is re-compressed to standard FullD1 MPEG2 (using 2pass VBR at ~8Mbps) for use in DVDs, or to h.264 (again Full D1 rez at ~3Mpbs) in MP4 or MKV format for use on computers/tablets/mediaplayers.
    2. For moderately less - but still very good - quality (mainly in blockiness and in color resolution/accuracy): cap using a DVcam with passthrough or an ADVC-type box/card/device, transferring as standard DV material (Full D1 rez at 25Mbps). Subsequent lossless/smart edit, colorspace conversion (to assist with the change from DV colorspace to more common colorspaces) and processing/filtering, then recompress copies as before.
    *3. Possibly alternately from #2 but equivalent in quality is to capture direct to MPEG2 (at fullD1 settings, but at higher bitrate - 8-15Mbps, or up to 25-50Mbps if doing all Iframe) using an analog card or a hardware-assisted MPEG2 capping/encoding card, then smart-render edit and postprocess & copy/reencode as before. An "all hardware" version of this is to use a DVD recorder.

    Also, in those scenarios, it is usually not until encoding the copy for playback that a resolution designed for square pixels (e.g. 640x480) is specified.

    To go just about any other method is likely wasteful (of quality and/or bitrate) and foolhardy, and fraught with additional (and often unnecessary) steps & perils.

    ****************************

    BTW, VHS is NOT a file, so it could not have a file type. VHS is a streaming, continuous analog data signal laid down sequentially on tape. It has to be converted to digital (digitized) first before a computer could ever do anything with it. Then it needs to be "captured" (encoded a certain way and stored into a file).

    And "TV cards" are rarely going to give you the best quality, because they are design to be receiveing RF signals, not baseband signals.

    Scott
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 15th Jun 2014 at 03:14.
    Quote Quote  
  16. Well I wasn't talking about a 700 mb file... and did you really quote all that from memory? Kudos... By the way I have backed up 640x480 cable tv at SVCD and on playback it was identical... granted it was a pretty high bit rate but still like 1.5 gb for 2 hours. Just good enough to back up live cable tv or VHS for storage on the hard drive.

    With all the torrents floating around it was just proof-of-concept anyway backing up a movie on an amd 700. (that's about the same as a pentium 2.) It's a lot easier to just download the file that's already been backed up.
    Last edited by ZeldaBoy; 15th Jun 2014 at 01:16.
    Quote Quote  
  17. Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    Cornucopia is a video professional, as well as a long-time member, so he really does know what he is talking about.

    The OP, who lives in the US, is transferring home movies, so some degree of future-proofing would be desirable. Divx/xvid avi at SVCD resolution is hardly future proof. It would be better to capture at 720x480 using MPEG-2.

    Divx had only limited success as a commercial distribution format and finding something (other than a computer) that can play divx/xvid will likely become more difficult as its popularity among hobbyists plummets. MPEG-2 is likely to have better support going forward because there is a massive amount of commercial material using it.

    Resolutions below full D1 are also not going to be well supported for playback going forward, unless using a computer. Once again, that is because there was little in the way of commercial material released on digital media using lower resolutions outside of Asia.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 15th Jun 2014 at 11:33.
    Quote Quote  



Similar Threads

Visit our sponsor! Try DVDFab and backup Blu-rays!