Dual Layer +R versus -R

[SCDVD]

I have found very little difference between +R and -R DVD-5 media. I know that some older players have a problem recognizing -R media and +R is useful for these machines when the booktype is set to DVD-ROM. That isn't an issue for me; I don't have any players that have a problem with either + or - media.

As for dual layer media, I have used quit a bit of Verbatim DL+R with good results. I have never used any DL -R media. Are there any practical differences between +R and -R DL media? I think some people inadvertently confuse one thing with another on issues like this. For example, comparing the results between Verbatim DL +R and some junk brand of DL -R media and concluding that DL -R media is no good when the real problem is junk media not DL -R media. So, the question is: Given equal quality media, are there any practical differences between DL +R and DL -R media?

[Dr. DOS]

I know with the +RDL's that most DL burners will bitset (bookmark) to DVDROM. This is very important since many set top players that will not recognize the -RDL disks.

So for me, primarily for DL, I will use +R disk.

[Noahtuck]

Everything i have ever read has said not to use "Double Layer" -R for dvd video.
I could be wrong about this as it's been awhile since i really looked into it or read anything about it because after i did i alway's just stuck with +R DL, it has something to do with the OTP and how you can set the layer break on +R, where -R is not as good & i thought was not originally designed for dvd video.

Plus Double Layer media (- or +) is not as compatible as single layer recordable media on standalone's & as Dr. DOS stated you can set the booktype on +R DL to DVD-ROM making them even more compatible.

& Verbatim +R is the brand of choice for Double Layer recordable media.

[lordsmurf]

The way layer break is done, DVD-R DL is not really suitable for video. Verbatim DVD-R DL is really all you can find anyhow.

[jman98]

I bought a 3 pack of Verbatim DVD-R DL discs and used them. I won't do that again. The DVD-R DL layer break is hokey the way they had to make it work. While I had no problems playing the burned discs on my PC and I do know how to correctly set the layer break for DVD-R DL (it MUST be done manually and it cannot be done on the fly by the burner) and I used PgcEdit to set it and ImgBurn to burn it, I had a lot of problems playing the discs back in my DVD player. In short, too much trouble, too many problems, too much cost to do DVD-R DL again.

I want to emphasize that the problem was NOT with the media as I think Verbatim's media is top notch, but it's with the entire DVD-R DL format.

[SCDVD]

So, if I tried to burn a dual layer video with DVD DL-R media using Nero or DVD Shrink or DVD Decrypter, would the burn fail or would I just wind up with a disc with playability problems?

[Noahtuck]

First off....
After everything stated, why would you even bother wasting your time & money taking a chance with DL -R

Second, i would never ever use nero for DL media, shrink does not burn, it uses other programs to burn & i would only use DVD Decrypter to burn Dl media if you know how to set the layer break ahead of time and make an ISO/MDS file.

It seem's i remember something about -R being Same Track Path where +R is Opposite Track Path, that is where the problem is on -R's when layers are changed for dvd video.

[VegasBud]

SCDVD,

For DVD-VIDEO, the main difference is that +RDL has a flexible layer break, while -RDL has a fixed layer break. That means the layer break on -RDL is likely to be really, really ugly, and since layer0 is always filled to capacity before writing to layer1, it's more prone to the "edge effect" (stored data is more prone to errors at the outer edge of the disk).

There's also a problem with player compatibility. For example, if you check the player list here at VideoHelp, you'll see that 771 players are listed as supporting +RDL, while only 251 are listed as supporting -RDL.

You should only use +RDL (preferably Verbatim) for DVD-VIDEO. For data you can use either format.

[jman98]

So, if I tried to burn a dual layer video with DVD DL-R media using Nero or DVD Shrink or DVD Decrypter, would the burn fail or would I just wind up with a disc with playability problems?

You HAVE to use DVD Decrypter or better yet ImgBurn (it's uses DVD Decrypter's burn engine) to burn DVD-R DL if you care at all about ever playing it anywhere after it burns. The layer break must be set manually and you must do some stuff to figure out where to set it. There are so many drawbacks to this format that I don't want to even give you hints on how to do it, that's how strongly I feel that you should avoid this format.

[Noahtuck]

For DVD-VIDEO, the main difference is that +RDL has a flexible layer break, while -RDL has a fixed layer break. That means the layer break on -RDL is likely to be really, really ugly, and since layer0 is always filled to capacity before writing to layer1, it's more prone to the "edge effect" (stored data is more prone to errors at the outer edge of the disk).

Yeah that too :P
After reading that i remember now.

[nwo]

i would never ever use nero for DL media

What issuse's does Nero have with DL media, i have been burning Plus
DL video's made with vegas 7 and burned with Nero 6, and never had
any play back issuse's with all my dvd players.

[joy]

i would never ever use nero for DL media

What issuse's does Nero have with DL media, i have been burning Plus
DL video's made with vegas 7 and burned with Nero 6, and never had
any play back issuse's with all my dvd players.

same here, no problems in playback with nero burned DL media

[Krispy Kritter]

It has to do with where Nero places the disc info files (ifo and bup? I believe). It places both in the same sector, so if the disc is scratched/damaged and cannot read the ifo file(s), the disc is trash. The bup (?) file is a backup file and should be in a different sector, when the ifo is damaged, the player searches for the bup file and can then play the disc. I believe there is/was also a layer break issue.

I've also only used Nero for DL media without any issues.

[jman98]

Krispy Kritter is 100% in describing the problem with Nero about BUP and IFO files. There was a problem with Nero where it didn't set the layer break correctly. My understanding was that such discs were coasters, so if you are using Nero to burn DL media and it works, maybe they fixed it. I don't care enough to test it as I know that making ISOs and burning with ImgBurn definitely works. Nero definitely does place the BUP and IFO in the same sector and that was never fixed. If any of you are not burning ISOs with Nero but dragging your files into its DVD template, then just understand that Nero's approach defeats the entire reason behind even having a BUP file and if that same sector ever gets corrupted then there is no alternate sector to use, so your disc will be unplayable.

[mazinz]

I was reading this and I noticed quite a few of you mentioned about manually setting the layerbreak. I do not understand what you are doing. Virtually all dvd apps I have/toyed with will automatically set/make a layerbreak for you should you need one with whatever you are authoring. If your disc goes over in size (or you tell the app its a cetain size disc) it will put in a layerbreak.

If you are backing up a disc, most rippers will give you the option of keeping or removing the layerbreak

The only time you really need to set it manually is if you need to have it by a certain spot on the disc.

[VegasBud]

mazinz,

I choose the layer break on every dual layer dvd I burn. While software can and will (if given the chance) automatically put in a layer break, it will be placed by an algorithm that, even if perfect, will still be basically a rules based decision, with no consideration given to the viewing experience. If you want the best layer break you can have, there is no substitute for previewing the choices, and using your eyes and mind for the final decision. It takes so long to author a dvd that spending an extra minute or two to set the best possible layer break is an insignificant investment of time.

When backing up most newer dvds, just ripping and removing all the unreferenced garbage will change where the layer break goes, so the original layer break may not be of much use...unless you're just going to leave all the garbage intact, which would position the layer break closer to the outer edge than it needs to be. The layer break is a weak point, and the outer edge of a disk is a weak point. Overlapping those two weak points is something to be avoided, if at all possible. The more you can pull the layer break back from the outer edge of the disk, the less problems you're likely to have with playback.

The only time you really "need to set it manually" is if the software can't find any place to put the layer break, and a cell has to be split. The rest of the time, it's more a preference based on a desire to produce a superior result.

[mazinz]

point taken
I do not use dual layers that often and if I do its more so for data. But in the past I have done some dual authoring (not just backups) with dvd workshop as well as dvd Maestro (in maestro I could toy with the break more)

I am also almost positive that the app dvdremakepro would move the layerbreak as needed should you delete garbage from a disc (this would occur after you export the modified files/disc), but I can double check that

[jman98]

DVD-R DL can't be set automatically. DVD+R DL allows what I will call a "variable layer break" where it can be set at different locations. The layer break on DVD-R DL can only go in one location and it must be set manually. In theory it could be set automatically, but it must occur at the end of the first layer and any minor difference in a DVD that the program didn't know about, say a DVD was slightly bigger than expected (this happens) and the layer break won't be set correctly. You have to put an unburned disc into something like DVD Decrypter and read the sector size to know where to set the layer break. This is why I don't recommend that people use DVD-R DL - too much trouble, too much possiblity for something to go wrong. Last time I looked DVD-R DL was a lot more expensive than DVD+R DL too.

[[_chef_]]

No DASH dvd media can be really booktyped, because its already done within the manufacturing process. Some weird burners claim to be able, but that are firmware bugs and quirks.

I burned a bunch of -R DL and they worked fine in a really old DVD player.
In case of Double Layer +R DL, Verbatim is choice #1.

Only DVDDecrypter and Imgburn were used.

[lordsmurf]

I was reading this and I noticed quite a few of you mentioned about manually setting the layerbreak. I do not understand what you are doing. Virtually all dvd apps I have/toyed with will automatically set/make a layerbreak for you should you need one with whatever you are authoring. If your disc goes over in size (or you tell the app its a cetain size disc) it will put in a layerbreak. If you are backing up a disc, most rippers will give you the option of keeping or removing the layerbreak. The only time you really need to set it manually is if you need to have it by a certain spot on the disc.

I set mine manually in PgcEdit and then it automates the burn in ImgBurn.

I don't trust automatic layer breaks any more than I trust an all-in-one cheapy program to give me the best encoding quality.

While it may work, it will have a measurable % of failures, letting software make your choices.

DVDWS2, by the way, does not do layer breaks correctly (much like Nero).

[[_chef_]]

Indeed, there is not always a safe way, but Imgburn v2 gave me the right choices after I had set it up properly (settings).

[VegasBud]

I burned a bunch of -R DL and they worked fine in a really old DVD player.

Instead of squandering all that good luck on -RDL burns, you should get on the next plane to Las Vegas. With your luck, you could make a fortune.

[[_chef_]]

I burned a bunch of -R DL and they worked fine in a really old DVD player.

Instead of squandering all that good luck on -RDL burns, you should get on the next plane to Las Vegas. With your luck, you could make a fortune.

And what do you want to say with your answer???

[bbanderic]

I was reading this and I noticed quite a few of you mentioned about manually setting the layerbreak. I do not understand what you are doing. Virtually all dvd apps I have/toyed with will automatically set/make a layerbreak for you should you need one with whatever you are authoring. If your disc goes over in size (or you tell the app its a cetain size disc) it will put in a layerbreak. If you are backing up a disc, most rippers will give you the option of keeping or removing the layerbreak. The only time you really need to set it manually is if you need to have it by a certain spot on the disc.

I set mine manually in PgcEdit and then it automates the burn in ImgBurn.

I don't trust automatic layer breaks any more than I trust an all-in-one cheapy program to give me the best encoding quality.

While it may work, it will have a measurable % of failures, letting software make your choices.

DVDWS2, by the way, does not do layer breaks correctly (much like Nero).

Of course there's nothing wrong with using PgcEdit to manually set the layer break but ImgBurn does just as good a job of allowing the user to manually set it as well. Just wanted to point that out.

I agree with LS, automatic layer break placement = BAD