questions about MCTemporalDenoise (nOObs encouraged to read)

[unclescoob]

Ok, so as some of you may already know, I have finally managed to get my grubby hands on this filter after various (failed) attempts. So after a few days of playing with my new toy, I have decided that it's time to take this for a real spin and use it accurately. I have videos to restore, dammit!

So I've been reading the document that comes with the script and taking notes. This, of course has spawned a few questions, of which I will only post 3 for the current time.

MCTemporalDenoise(settings="whatever") is, according to the document, a "post-processing" script, where the actual denoising functions are off by default.

The the settings table in the document reflect this information, as, regardless of settings listed, whether low medium or high, the "useTTmpSm" function is off, the chroma is false, Anti-Aliasing is off, deblock is false, and edgeclean is false, etc.

based on this information and my recent experience with this filter, my questions are as follows:


1. If for example, I just use the following command: MCTemporalDenoise(settings="high"), does this mean that it is performing every other function EXCEPT denoising?

2. If the answer to question #1 is yes, do I actually have to mention it in the command? ie - useTTmpSm(5), deblock(25), etc.?

3. If no denoising occurs using the above-mentioned command, why are my fine details still faded in my video clip, and why is the filter running so slow, as IF there is denoising going on?

[poisondeathray]

Ok, so as some of you may already know, I have finally managed to get my grubby hands on this filter after various (failed) attempts. So after a few days of playing with my new toy, I have decided that it's time to take this for a real spin and use it accurately. I have videos to restore, dammit!

So I've been reading the document that comes with the script and taking notes. This, of course has spawned a few questions, of which I will only post 3 for the current time.

MCTemporalDenoise(settings="whatever") is, according to the document, a "post-processing" script, where the actual denoising functions are off by default.

No, where does it say that?

Some functions are off by default, but it still denoises. What is on or off according to the settings is listed in a chart in the .avsi document

MCTemporalDenoisePP is for post processing (PP is for post processing)

Note MCTemporalDenoise isnt the same thing as MCTemporalDenoisePP

I suppose you want to rephrase some of your other questions

[sanlyn]

Post-processing is a separate function in the script. If you don't call it explicitly in your script, the function is ignored. It has values that you turn on or off and set as desired. It allows for great leeway in areas you want to post-process. The text just underneath the comments/descriptions for the "PP" function, a few lines below the statement "USAGE: MCTemporalDenoisePP( denoised, source, . . . " states as follows:

### This is the post-processor used internally in MCTemporalDenoise.
### It can be called externally if you want some specific functionality without denoising.
###
### Parameters & defaults are the same as MCTemporalDenoise. 
### By default, all filters are OFF!

MCTD always denoises. The main function of MCTD isn't called using "MCTemporalDenoisePP". It's called with the statement "MCTemporalDenoise" followed by desired settings. Look at the avsi file (not the html, which has errors), 22 lines or so down from the top.

The main function's executable code starts about 1/3 of the way down the page. The "PP" function's code is about 3/4 of the way down. Everything on lines that begin with "###" is comments, not code.

If you want to run processes that are turned off, turn them on (with correct values, of course).

[unclescoob]

The document states the following:

MCTemporalDenoisePP
This is the post processing portion of MCTemporalDenoise, and it has the wonderful ability to be called externally. It differs from MCTemporalDenoise in the fact that it doesn't denoise, and that all settings default to off. Meaning, you do nothing without turning on a feature.
Parameters are the same as MCTemporalDenoise.
"Sharp" & "Protect" options need 2 inputs/ Example:
source=lastdenoised=source.FFT3Dfilter()MCTemporal DenoisePP(denoised,source,...)The others only need "denoised".
By default, all filters are off!

Except that other examples of MCTemporalDenoisePP are listed as follows:

[edit] Examples

MCTemporalDenoise(settings="low", edgeclean=true, ecrad=3, stabilize=true, maxr=2)or
MCTemporalDenoise(settings="medium")etc...

My question is: Why are the two examples listed above not called MCTemporalDenoisePP? They're listed as MCTemporalDenoise

[Gavino]

MCTemporalDenoisePP is a support function that carries out the postprocessing part of MCTemporalDenoise (and is called by it).
The only reason it exists as a separate function is so you can call it independently if you want to use its features without doing any denoising. Normally, you just use the main function which does both denoising and any selected postprocessing.

The examples in the doc are in a separate section and refer to MCTemporalDenoise.

[unclescoob]

So for example, if I want to use my own denoising script, BUT still use features such as MVTools, sharpening, Edgeprotect, and all other stuff in the MCTemporalDenoise script...then I would ONLY call MCTemporalDenoisePP with desired settings AFTER my denoising script?

[sanlyn]

Yes. I don't know of anyone who's ever used "PP". I haven't. I usually tweak the main function if its defaults don't suit, although rarely. It takes some hard practise to do that. Don't forget to look over the docs for the other plugins and functions that MCTD calls. You don't have to have engineering knowledge of all of it, but you'd feel more comfortable knowing what some of those settings are.

[unclescoob]

Great. Thanks guys, thanks Sanlyn. This is all clear to me now. I'll post some stuff tomorrow.

[unclescoob]

This is all clear to me now.

Well, actually not quite.

It still doesn't explain why is it that the settings table listed in the document has all the denoising functions listed as false, regardless of settings. Such as "useTtempsmooth=false", etc.

I know that a command line such as MCTemporalDenoise(settings="medium"), for example, does actually denoise.

But why does the table list otherwise?

[unclescoob]

Look at the avsi file (not the html, which has errors)

Wait, I just re-read this. Sanlyn, the table listed in wikidocs is the html document? Is that an error?

[unclescoob]

Ok, just skimmed the avsi, as you suggested. The settings table listed there is a bit different from the html.

According to the information on that table, denoising still doesn't actually take place unless you set it to "high" (such as stabilize, which uses TTempSmooth). Edgeclean and UseTTmpSm are completely listed as "false" across the row, regardless of settings (unless specified in the script, maybe?).

[poisondeathray]

According to the information on that table, denoising still doesn't actually take place unless you set it to "high" (such as stabilize, which uses TTempSmooth). Edgeclean and UseTTmpSm are completely listed as "false" across the row, regardless of settings (unless specified in the script, maybe?).

Yes it does

"sigma" refers to fft3dfilter's sigma strength, so even on "very low" it's working

The ones that are false across the board have to be called separately (independent of preset)

Every command listed will override the preset. Think of the preset as a starting point

e.g. MCTemporalDenoise(settings = "low", sigma = 3) will give sigma =3, even though it's supposed to be 4, as shown in the chart

[unclescoob]

So what you're saying is that, in terms of denoising, fft3d works at whatever settings, but TTempSmooth and Edgeclean will not work, regardless of settings, unless called independently?

And if so, would this be a good example on how to get those two to function specifically?:

MCTemporalDenoise(settings="low", TTempSmooth=true, Edgeclean=true)

[poisondeathray]

So what you're saying is that, in terms of denoising, fft3d works but TTempSmooth and Edgeclean will not unless called independently?

yes

And if so, would this be a good example on how to get those two to function specifically?:

MCTemporalDenoise(settings="low", TTempSmooth=true, Edgeclean=true)

No, ttempsmooth is called with useTTmpSm=true

[unclescoob]

No, ttempsmooth is called with useTTmpSm=true

Right, that's what I meant. Ok, clear now.

Thanks again

[unclescoob]

One more question (although I'm already experimenting with this on my own):

If I add any additional denoisers to my script AFTER MCTemporalDenoise(), will those denoisers be under the same "protection" (i.e - masking, MV, AA, deband, etc) that the denoisers in the MCTemporalDenoise script receive?

example:

MCTemporalDenoise(settings="medium")
TTempSmooth(luma=5) -------------------------> Will this filter...
TemporalCleaner(luma=4)----------> and this filter....enjoy the protection that the filters in MCTemporalDenoise receive?

[poisondeathray]

One more question (although I'm already experimenting with this on my own):

If I add any additional denoisers to my script AFTER MCTemporalDenoise(), will those denoisers be under the same "protection" (i.e - masking, MV, AA, deband, etc) that the denoisers in the MCTemporalDenoise script receive?

example:

MCTemporalDenoise(settings="medium")
TTempSmooth(luma=5) -------------------------> Will this filter...
TemporalCleaner(luma=4)----------> and this filter....enjoy the protection that the filters in MCTemporalDenoise receive?

Nope, all calculations , motion vectors etc.. will only be applied to MCTD . Every filter applied afterwards will only "see" the output of MCTD

[unclescoob]

Ugh. Thanks.

[sanlyn]

It still doesn't explain why is it that the settings table listed in the document has all the denoising functions listed as false, regardless of settings. Such as "useTtempsmooth=false", etc.

I know that a command line such as MCTemporalDenoise(settings="medium"), for example, does actually denoise.

But why does the table list otherwise?

ttempsmooth (which is activated in MCTD as "useTTmpSm=true") isn't the world's only denoiser. MCTD uses several denoisers, including FFTD3, RemoveGrain, and others. These denoisers address grain, motion artifacts, blocking, banding, etc. Try using some of those named plugins as separate filters by themselves. They have different effects and address different problems.

[unclescoob]

I know. I guess since I've been using ttempsmooth so often, I'm stuck in that "ttempsmooth box".

[sanlyn]

I'm struggling thru MCTD myself, as it's a starting point for learning how several popular Avisynth filters can be used. You could always start by going to the wiki's list of umpteen plugins, but trying to get thru all of them is so immense an effort it's almost futile. Browsing the docs for each of those plugins can get you familiar with a good group of filters.

For example, I find that MCTD's settings for the "sigma" value in FFT3D is a bit high for most videos. Values like 8 to 15 might be OK for anime, but for "real" video it over-smooths, wiping out detail and making some videos look foggy. Playing for just a while with FFT3D by itself (and the other MCTD plugins) can help you understand and tweak MCTD easier.

And, yep, I'll agree with you: doing that is a pain. So far, it's been worth it. But it's still a pain.

[unclescoob]

Playing for just a while with FFT3D by itself (and the other MCTD plugins) can help you understand and tweak MCTD easier.

That's actually a very good idea. I'm going to do just that. But otherwise, dudes...MCTD is CRAZY! in the way it works. And I mean that in a very good way. After using it on some sample clips, I can't believe that I was trying to accomplish the same results with other denoisers combined with NeatVideo. MCTD is POWERFUL, and the beautiful part about it is that, if configured correctly, does not damage your video. The creators of this script are totally genius. Never did I imagine I could accomplish my goals with my cartoons like I have just playing with this script. Slow? Hell's yeah. But oh man is it worth the wait! I will never regret going through the trouble I did just to get it. Sanlyn, like you said about Avisynth...after 40somewhat tries, you will eventually get it right.

PS - if you read my old threads/posts, I used to talk so much crap about Avisynth. Boy have I come quite a way

[unclescoob]

Manono and PDR - I hope you'll both accept my public apology here at VH.Com for past expressions of frustration. Please understand that it was all frustration with not understanding some things about Avisynth. So bygones be bygones?

[poisondeathray]

Manono and PDR - I hope you'll both accept my public apology here at VH.Com for past expressions of frustration. Please understand that it was all frustration with not understanding some things about Avisynth. So bygones be bygones?

I can't answer for Manono (or the others, yes... there were others) , but I've already moved past it. I'm answering questions here aren't I ?

Cheers

[unclescoob]

I know. Just wanted to get it out of the way.

Thanks.