HD DVD Recorder

[wg_rebel]

Not sure how to ask this.. I am talking to an Manufacture in Asia about making an DVD Recorder that has HD Inputs and Outputs (at least Component)with the ability to Record in 720p and 480p using DVD Media.. Maybe an internal Hard Drive.. I would like to have such a Device.. They asked me how many Units I could sell.. I am looking some feedback; any and all.. It there is a large market for such a device what features will it need, taking into consideration that I am not looking to make such a Device too expensive..
Please feel free to email me at wg_rebel@ipass.net or here..
Tnx, W.G.

[Baldrick]

Search for a blu-ray recorder. Like https://www.videohelp.com/dvdrecorders?DVDname=&Submit=Search&writebdr=1&hdsize=Any&dvd...&Search=Search

I don't think you will find a dvd recorder with hd inputs.

ANd please don't cross post. I deleted your other thread.

[jman98]

You sure won't sell very many in the USA and Canada. The manufacturers of plain old DVD recorders have abandoned the marketplace here. In fact, the very last manufacturer still making DVD recorders for the USA and Canada will stop production for those countries in a few more months.

[jagabo]

Personally, I'm no longer interested on plastic discs. All my media is stored as files is on hard drives, shared on the LAN. It can be watched from any TV or computer in the house.

The biggest problem you'll face isn't recording. It's controlling the cable/satellite box. The recorder needs to include an IR blaster and know how to control hundreds of different devices. People are too stupid to figure out how to set that up. That's why everyone just uses the DVR the cable/satellite company provides for $20/month. The market of people smart and persistent enough to figure it all out is too small to sustain a business.

Another issue you'll find is that most cable/satellite boxes won't output both HDMI and HD component at the same time. Since the HDTV will be hooked up to HDMI you won't get anything from the composite cable. And you can't record HDMI because it's encrypted with HDCP.

Hollywood hates the idea that you might be able to record anything and watch it again at a later date. They will do everything they can to stop you.

Finally, eventually everything will be available streaming, on demand, for a flat monthly fee. So there will be no reason to record anything.

[usually_quiet]

Not sure how to ask this.. I am talking to an Manufacture in Asia about making an DVD Recorder that has HD Inputs and Outputs (at least Component)with the ability to Record in 720p and 480p using DVD Media.. Maybe an internal Hard Drive.. I would like to have such a Device.. They asked me how many Units I could sell.. I am looking some feedback; any and all.. It there is a large market for such a device what features will it need, taking into consideration that I am not looking to make such a Device too expensive..
Please feel free to email me at wg_rebel@ipass.net or here..
Tnx, W.G.

Do you mean an AVCHD recorder for DVD or DVD+R DL, or do you mean a Blu-Ray recorder? Your product's ability to record in HD to optical media would be unique in the N. American market, but would still be competing with paid TV service DVRs, TiVo and a few HD recording devices for over-the-air use like the Channel Master TV CM-7400 HD. Even though the competing devices only record to a hard drive, most people in N. America do not want to save recorded TV shows on optical media, so the current options suit them perfectly.

The least expensive existing Blu-Ray recorders sold in the US for videography sell for $800. I don't think you can sell a Blu-Ray or AVCHD recorder designed to record HDTV for much less (and still make a reasonable profit), and I don't think you will sell many at that price. There are some people here or at the AVS Forum who claim to be willing to pay any price for a US Blu-Ray or AVCHD recorder, but they represent an insignificant percentage of the population. I just bought one of the final DVD recorders with a hard drive and an ATSC tuner last month for $200, and while I enjoy using it, even if your product sold for only $500, at that price I would probably pass and opt to build an HTPC instead. (I also record off the air with a PC now.)

Current Blu-Ray recorders sold elsewhere for recording TV only record HDTV using their tuner, and the tuner only allows recording free over-the-air TV. The bulk of the N. American population primarily watches TV via some kind of paid service.

In addition to the problem of controlling the set top box, which jagabo already mentioned, conveniently recording HD cable or HD satellite requires overcoming other issues.

No current Blu-Ray recorders have HDMI or component inputs. They only have SD analog inputs. I suspect technology licenses required for Blu-Ray don't allow HDMI or analog component inputs. Even if HDMI or component video inputs were allowed for an AVCHD recorder, your recorder would still be required to obey HDCP and copy protection in the signals. This means N. Americans wanting to record cable or satellite to an optical disc would have to acquire additional equipment to strip HDCP or copy-protection from the signals produced by their set-top box. Without this added equipment (which is somewhat illicit at best), most HD programming could not be recorded on optical media, if it could be recorded at all. ("Copy Never" and HDCP protected output could not be recorded. "Copy once" programming from a component video source would need to be recorded in encrypted form on the recorder's hard drive.)

[wg_rebel]

I could not figure out how to reply to each of your replies so I will try to respond here..

For Mr. Baldrick;
U R correct, U can Not find an DVD Reader/Writer that Records in High Definition.. That is why I am talking to a manufacture whom is somewhat interested in the idea of beginning the Manufacture of an Unit that Will Record 720p on an DVD Disc.. I thought that was what I said in my other Post..

For Jman98;
Tnx 4 UR reply, but I certainly didn't want to hear that.. I have been wanting such a device for a while.. Now that I have contacted an Manufacture that will talk to me about the idea or manufacturing one, the opinions that such a device will Not sell is disheartening to me..

For Jagabo;
Tnx 4 UR reply.. The fact that things are progressing past recording on to an DVD onto others such as Flash Drives; that's the story of my life.. A day late and a dollar short.. By the time I move up to some new product or software, things have moved on; or in this case I want to modify a device to do a certain operation, but we are moving past it unique need.. I just used an CAT5 cable to connect my DirecTV DVR Receiver to the Internet this week, so that I can get streaming HD Shows and Movies..
I understand about the possibility of the data being encrypted; maybe we could use a device like the HDFury or include its technology in the Recording Device..
I will not have a problem plugging the HDMI cable while I use the Component Output of the Cable box..
And yes I realize that Hollywood would hate my idea; I say fooey ( I don't know how to spell that) on them..

for Usually_Quiet;
I think I answered your 1st question already, Yes, AVCHD recorder for DVD or DVD+/-R DL Media..
I really don't know exactly what I would need or is required for such a Device to work; that's why I am on this forum asking questions and asking for suggestions..

[usually_quiet]

I understand about the possibility of the data being encrypted; maybe we could use a device like the HDFury or include its technology in the Recording Device..
I will not have a problem plugging the HDMI cable while I use the Component Output of the Cable box..
And yes I realize that Hollywood would hate my idea; I say fooey ( I don't know how to spell that) on them..

If your device fails to comply with current copy protection requirements, and you attempted to sell it inside the US, the chances of your enterprise being forced out of business because of DMCA violations are fairly high. You will have to operate entirely outside the US like the makers of the HD Fury. I can't speak for others but I am very reluctant to buy from a company with no US business presence or customer support.

[jagabo]

I understand about the possibility of the data being encrypted; maybe we could use a device like the HDFury or include its technology in the Recording Device..
And yes I realize that Hollywood would hate my idea; I say fooey ( I don't know how to spell that) on them..

You'll need to say a lot more than "fooey" when their army of lawyers descends upon you. There's a reason only Chinese companies are making devices like the HD Fury, and none are for sale in the USA except through grey market channels.

I will not have a problem plugging the HDMI cable while I use the Component Output of the Cable box..

Maybe you won't, but your prospective customers will. Expect a lot of returns.

[wg_rebel]

Hi Jagabo,
Tnx 4 the reply..
Y'all are just no fun at all, kill a man's dream.. Sure don't look good for my DVD HD Recorder..
I thought I had a good idea, except for the copywrite type of problems my idea would have been better
4 or 5 years ago, I guess..

[leaglebob]

This may be off point but recording HD to a DVD is easily done on my computer. I do use DivX to save room but assume a short .ts file cold also be burned as it is only 1's and 0's? But it is not a stand alone desk top unit. I think Sony sold such a unit 6-7 years ago and stopped because of complaints from the content providers (MPAA).

[yoda313]

Edit - @leaglebob - I think what you are thinking of is the Sony dvd direct. I think it was only capable of standard definition. It was mainly for copying a camcorder to dvd if I'm not mistaken.

I think what I would like personally is something that would turn the hauppauge hd pvr into a stanalone avchd burner.

If you could incorporate that into the works that would be nice. Than you could do it without a full fledged computer. It would simply be another settop unit sitting there ready to go.

Of course the hdpvrs days are numbered. As soon as component is obsolete and switched off its value will diminish.

However it should still be able to record standard def and 5.1 at least even when component is gone.

I guess gaming would still be doable on component for the foreseeable future but the days are numbered for cable/sat/fios dvrs. I can still do high def recording via component on my comcast dvr. At least i could the other month. It has been a little while since I've tried.

But at least if you were limited to svideo and fiber optic 5.1 it would still make good but not great recordings since you'd be in the standard def realm. Hopefully it would still be 16:9 in standard def and not letterbox - hopefully. Keeping 5.1 would be key. If they eliminated 5.1 over fiber optic too than the hauppauge hd pvr would just become an overpriced standard def capture unit since its key features would no longer available. However being a realtime h264 encoder box would still be benificial for those with older computers (mines a dual core so I don't know how well I could capture into h264 with any other means besides the happuage hd pvr).

I don't know is my idea too far fetched or would that be appealing to some? A hauppauge hd pvr settop unit with burner? And actually a bluray burner would be great so you could record at the max 13.5 and fit a full movie on it at top quality - well as far as the situation is not bit for bit digital original of course.

[gastrof]

WG_Rebel?

You might want to repeat your question in a different forum.

Try here-
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=940657&page=662

The only problem you may run into is that you can't fit much High Def video on a regular DVD, and so Blu-Ray discs would likely be the way to go.

DVD really only holds any decent amount of material when it's in Standard Def.

By the way, the guys in that forum are chomping at the bit for a new hard drive and optical disc recorder in the United States and Canada.

[wg_rebel]

Hi Gastrof,
So when I go to Wally World and buy 1 of $5 DVDs or order an Movie on DVD from Amazon, the disc isn't a regular DVD??



P.S. Is there a way to respond to an individual and it still be listed in the public forum and thread??

[leaglebob]

gastrof - standard dvd can hold quite a bit depending on resolution and compression. Only a raw .ts file would be very limited onto dvds? /////------How to make a new paragraph?-----/////// yoda--No. This was about 5-6 years ago and Best Buy had one returned unit for sale out of box with no remote for about $350. Only a bit more than the Liteon HD recorder was selling for at the same time--new, with a warranty. As I researched this unit on google it appeared to be a fully functional HD recorder and if not I think it would have still recorded from the analogue hole. I spent 1-2 days researching what unencrypted HD was available from Comcast and how long the analogue hole might be left open and went to the store to buy it. It was gone. Google said at the time that demand for the unit was high but Sony had decided to stop making it. I think the normal retail was twice the cost. And the cost of a free standing HD recorder then and now is about the same as a stripped down computer tower? About the only difference really is the form factor and that could be fudged if desired. What is perhaps more practically needed is a hack of current set top HD units provided by Comcast or the silicon dust units. Should be someway to record that video stream? Yeah, if I had more time and money, not to mention any actual expertise, these options could be scoped out. Of note: I am nearly through with tossing my 4000 vcr tape collection into the trash as it has already been 60% recorded in higher resolution onto dvds and both have again been 50% recorded in even higher resolution onto hard drives. Technology does march on. Before the flood in Thailand, hard drives were cheaper and much much more convenient than dvds. I see the cost has just now started to come back down. That too will probably be replaced by Video on Demand services. ...... Technology does march on.

[jagabo]

Hi Gastrof,
So when I go to Wally World and buy 1 of $5 DVDs or order an Movie on DVD from Amazon, the disc isn't a regular DVD??

They are regular pressed DVDs. Standard definition (720x480) MPEG 2 video on a single layer ~4 GB, or dual layer ~9 GB disc. Most Blu-ray players can play high def material off DVD media, with certain limitations, called AVCHD discs. The problem is, the small size of DVDR media, and the higher bitrate requirements of high def material, limits the recording time. Regular DVD players cannot play high def material or h.264 encoded video.

Oh, and in case you're not aware, there was a short lived high definition disc format called HD DVD. It was released about the same time as Blu-ray and had similar specs. Like Blu-ray, the discs could not be read on regular DVD players.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD

P.S. Is there a way to respond to an individual and it still be listed in the public forum and thread??

Click on the user's name at the left of the post and select Private Message.

[jagabo]

What is perhaps more practically needed is a hack of current set top HD units provided by Comcast or the silicon dust units.

If you came up with such a hack you could not sell it in the USA (DMCA). And you would have to come out with different hacks (assuming you mean firmware hacks) for every different set-top box. Keep in mind that high def set-top boxes download their firmware from the cable company every time they power up. They don't do anything without the permission of the cable company.

[lacywest]

Interesting

[orsetto]

WG_Rebel?

You might want to repeat your question in a different forum.

Try here-
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=940657&page=662

Actually , no: he does not want to go anywhere NEAR that ridiculous 20,000 post wabjxo (aka wajo) masturbation thread. The fanboy noise drowns out anything useful (unless you're a masochist who enjoys parsing glutinous threads and seeing the irrelevant phrase "WalMart Strategic Partner" repeated endlessly like a demented mantra). The machine is dead anyway, and all WG-Rebel would learn is that he better be "talking" with Funai about his idea, because no other "company" could pull it off at a price point Americans would be willing to pay.

AVCHD-on-DVD is a niche format that confuses the mass market. The discs won't play in a regular DVD player, only BluRay players or PCs. So the minute anyone tried to sell such a disc recorder in America, they'd be crushed by all the store returns from customers complaining the discs aren't compatible with their minivan players. Very few consumers have enough sense to come in out of the rain, never mind read an instruction book and understand they need to switch the machine to "standard DVD mode" when they want regular DVDs. Another hitch is that the processing and programming required to make AVCHD-On-DVD recorders won't come in much less expensive than a full-on BluRay recorder, so the product cancels itself out financially.

jagabo and usually-quiet already posted about the additional stubborn cable service integration issues faced by Americans that have all but killed the market for independent recorders. The only mfr left that has any shot at rejuvenating the American TV recorder is Funai, but to do this they would need to leverage their WalMart connections to press for a CableCard license. Such licenses are almost impossible to get for recorders with removable media, so Funai / Walmart would have to be willing to roll the dice on a HDD-only recorder box (no burning) or a derivative of the HDD recorder with built in BluRay player (no burning) now catching on in Europe for off-air and satellite timeshifting. We'll have to wait and see if they introduce anything to replace the dead Magnavox in the next few weeks, or perhaps October.

[yoda313]

as it has already been 60% recorded in higher resolution onto dvds and both have again been 50% recorded in even higher resolution onto hard drives

You do know that is technically not possible right?

You may be "upscaling" it but you are not magically making those video tapes dvd quailty. At best you are PRESERVING the original quality. That is less than the dvd quality.

I'm surprised nobody jumped on that statement. Maybe that was why the op decided not to use paragraphs in that post so that quick readers might not spot that ridiculous statement?

[usually_quiet]

Sony makes an AVCHD recorder for videography that stores up to 95 min. of HD video on a DVD+R DL disc.* http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId...tNumber=VRDMC6

*The catch is the HD video source has to be a Sony HD camera that records AVCHD video. There are no component video or HDMI connections, and it can only produce regular MPEG-2 DVDs from an SD analog source.

Given the limited recording time and the fact that good DVD+R DL media and single-layer BD recordable media cost almost the same now, and the BD recordable media holds more video, I think the time for a strictly AVCHD recorder has indeed passed.

[Edit]Sony now makes a BD recorder for videography too. http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId...tNumber=VBDMA1

Here too the catch is the HD video source has to be a Sony HD camera that records AVCHD video. There are no component video or HDMI connections.

[yoda313]

Edit]Sony now makes a BD recorder for videography too. http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/sto...tNumber=VBDMA1

Here too the catch is the HD video source has to be a Sony HD camera that records AVCHD video. There are no component video or HDMI connections.

Any chances that inspired persons could hack this unit and rig it up to incorporate these missing inputs? Would custom firmware enable this possiblity? Say a hacked blackmagic intensity card?

[jagabo]

Edit]Sony now makes a BD recorder for videography too. http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/sto...tNumber=VBDMA1

Here too the catch is the HD video source has to be a Sony HD camera that records AVCHD video. There are no component video or HDMI connections.

Any chances that inspired persons could hack this unit and rig it up to incorporate these missing inputs? Would custom firmware enable this possiblity? Say a hacked blackmagic intensity card?

Anything is possible. But it would be a lot of work and the result would be an expensive Frankenstein device. It would be simpler and cheaper to build you own box from off the shelf parts -- a small motherboard, Hauppauge HD PVR, Linux, DVD burner, write your own software. In the end, you still have all the other problems mentioned earlier in this thread.

It might be a good open source hardware/software project for DIY'ers.

[Chopmeister]

Edit]Sony now makes a BD recorder for videography too. http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/sto...tNumber=VBDMA1

Here too the catch is the HD video source has to be a Sony HD camera that records AVCHD video. There are no component video or HDMI connections.

Any chances that inspired persons could hack this unit and rig it up to incorporate these missing inputs? Would custom firmware enable this possiblity? Say a hacked blackmagic intensity card?

Anything is possible. But it would be a lot of work and the result would be an expensive Frankenstein device. It would be simpler and cheaper to build you own box from off the shelf parts -- a small motherboard, Hauppauge HD PVR, Linux, DVD burner, write your own software. In the end, you still have all the other problems mentioned earlier in this thread.

Absolutely - easier, cheaper, and more flexible. The hardware is available, and you don't even have to write your own software - it already exists. I have just acquired the parts to do this myself, the cost isn't outrageous, and even with my feeble technical knowledge it is easy to do. I already had a laptop (not too powerful - core i3, but with dedicated graphics and HDMI out). To this I am adding a 4x2 HDMI matrix splitter, and HD Fury and a Hauppauge HD PVR.

Video sources - cable box, blu-ray player etc - all go into the matrix splitter. One output goes to the TV for normal use. The other output will go to the HD PVR via the HD Fury. Needed software to record and edit recordings etc comes with the HD PVR. Cost of parts on top of the laptop was only a couple of hundred bucks ($US equivalent). Back-end storage is planned to be a NAS (which I haven't bought yet) with 4x3TB drives, for 9TB usable and a parity drive, networked to a couple of WD LV Live Hub players.

The cable box already has a hard drive for HD recording and playback with integrated EPG, so the recorder I build doesn't have to control it. It does mean that the process to extract material I want to keep off the box is slightly manual - press record then press play, trim the files afterwards - but I can live with that. If I can't, I will add an IR blaster.

Simple, cheap, fairly bulletproof, and upgradeable in stages if anything breaks.

[usually_quiet]

Edit]Sony now makes a BD recorder for videography too. http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/sto...tNumber=VBDMA1

Here too the catch is the HD video source has to be a Sony HD camera that records AVCHD video. There are no component video or HDMI connections.

Any chances that inspired persons could hack this unit and rig it up to incorporate these missing inputs? Would custom firmware enable this possiblity? Say a hacked blackmagic intensity card?

I don't think adding HD connections would do any good. I haven't read the manual yet, but I suspect this recorder is incapable of encoding HD video to H.264 format. I think it merely transfers the AVCHD recordings from the camera to a BD disc.