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  1. After reading about the upcoming mirrorless Sony a7r II camera, and its clean 4K/10-bit/4:4:4 HDMI output, I'm thinking of the possibility to use a Windows tablet for 4K monitoring and recording at the same time, using an HDMI-to-USB3 adapter. Did anyone try this? I'd like to avoid the codec limitation of dedicated recording boxes, and choose my own - probably MagicYUV (waiting for 10-bit version) and Grass Valley HQX (8-bit outside Edius), because they accept non-standard resolutions, and are efficient for both capturing and editing. This way I can keep the cost to a minimum, while using the tablet for other tasks, too. Apart from a fast SSD, what are the minimum requirements for a tablet for this kind of work? Will the adapter affect the speed of the signal? Software-wise, I suppose VirtualDub won't have any objections. But if you can recommend any other software which records at any given codec, resolution, colour depth and sampling, please do.
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    You are going to capture clean 4K 10bit 4:4:4 with a tablet?

    Right now the only sensible choice for external 4K recording is the Atomos Shogun and t5he Shogun is limited to 4:2:2

    Recording 4K 10bit 4:4:4 is certainly possible but if you are asking if you can do this with a Windows tablet I am certain the solution is way beyond your comfortable price range.

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  3. Originally Posted by newpball View Post
    You are going to capture clean 4K 10bit 4:4:4 with a tablet?

    Right now the only sensible choice for external 4K recording is the Atomos Shogun and t5he Shogun is limited to 4:2:2

    Recording 4K 10bit 4:4:4 is certainly possible but if you are asking if you can do this with a Windows tablet I am certain the solution is way beyond your comfortable price range.

    :)
    Atomos provides DNxHD/DNxHR, ProRes, and RAW with a future firmware update, which I don't know if it's going to have lossless compression or not. Still not a variety of choices if, for example, someone wants to shoot at 2.39:1 ratio. Will the new Microsoft/Dell/HP tablets do the job if I settle for 4:2:2?
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    I just tested and Prores has no trouble with 2.39:1 aspect ratio. No problem with Lagarith either...

    This is an interesting idea if you can get it to work.
    Got my retirement plans all set. Looks like I only have to work another 5 years after I die........
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    What HDMI-to-USB3 adapter did you have in mind? I could find only a handful of external 4K capture devices, and more had a Thunderbolt interface for the PC than USB 3.0.

    This was the only one I found with USB 3.0, and it can only do 4:2:0 8-bit and up to 30fps for UHD resolutions http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1073122-REG/inogeni_4k2usb3_4k_hdmi_to_usb.html
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  6. Originally Posted by racer-x View Post
    I just tested and Prores has no trouble with 2.39:1 aspect ratio. No problem with Lagarith either...

    This is an interesting idea if you can get it to work.
    It's just that ProRes is heavy on CPU as an intermediate and doesn't produce as clean results as GV HQX, plus is not optimised for PCs.

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    What HDMI-to-USB3 adapter did you have in mind? I could find only a handful of external 4K capture devices, and more had a Thunderbolt interface for the PC than USB 3.0.

    This was the only one I found with USB 3.0, and it can only do 4:2:0 8-bit and up to 30fps for UHD resolutions http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1073122-REG/inogeni_4k2usb3_4k_hdmi_to_usb.html
    I was looking at these.
    http://www.club-3d.com/index.php/products/reader.en/product/usb-30-to-hdmi-4k-graphics-adapter.html
    http://www.diamondmm.com/bvu5500-video-graphics-adapter.html
    http://plugable.com/products/uga-4khdmi
    http://www.startech.com/AV/USB-Video-Adapters/usb-3-4k-displayport-adapter~USB32DP4K

    They do not provide further characteristics for depth and chroma, and they're priced way lower than the Inogeni you mention, so I believe there's no chance they support 10-bit or 4:4:4.

    Now I found this Cintiq Companion 2 from Wacom, which comes with Windows, and has a straight HDMI input. I reckon this is the only HDMI-in tablet to this date.
    http://www.wacom.com/en-us/products/pen-displays/cintiq-companion-2

    Note there's also a lower-cost first version with two options - one with Android (also HDMI), and the other has Windows but lacks the HDMI, which is... irritating.
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    Originally Posted by Nurz View Post
    I was looking at these.
    Those are USB3-to-HDMI, not HDMI-to-USB3 (actually two of them aren't even HDMI, they're DisplayPort). They're externalized graphics "cards" whereas you need a capture device.

    Now I found this Cintiq Companion 2 from Wacom, which comes with Windows, and has a straight HDMI input. I reckon this is the only HDMI-in tablet to this date.
    http://www.wacom.com/en-us/products/pen-displays/cintiq-companion-2
    "Graphics Input: HDMI when attached to PC or Mac". Don't expect this to work with your camera.
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    Originally Posted by vaporeon800 View Post
    Now I found this Cintiq Companion 2 from Wacom, which comes with Windows, and has a straight HDMI input. I reckon this is the only HDMI-in tablet to this date.
    http://www.wacom.com/en-us/products/pen-displays/cintiq-companion-2
    "Graphics Input: HDMI when attached to PC or Mac". Don't expect this to work with your camera.
    Yes, that HDMI port allows the Wacom tablet to be used as a second display or as a regular drawing tablet for a PC or Mac, rather than a stand-alone device. The HDMI input is not for video capture.
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  9. Originally Posted by vaporeon800 View Post
    "Graphics Input: HDMI when attached to PC or Mac". Don't expect this to work with your camera.
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Yes, that HDMI port allows the Wacom tablet to be used as a second display or as a regular drawing tablet for a PC or Mac, rather than a stand-alone device. The HDMI input is not for video capture.
    I guess you're right. It seems like a dead end. The only thing that somewhat works is the Inogeni adapter. All this is just another monopolistic marketing model. But I digress.
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    Note that for about 1.2k you can get the barebones educational Shogun, so for those who study this may be the ideal deal.

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    Originally Posted by Nurz View Post
    Originally Posted by vaporeon800 View Post
    "Graphics Input: HDMI when attached to PC or Mac". Don't expect this to work with your camera.
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Yes, that HDMI port allows the Wacom tablet to be used as a second display or as a regular drawing tablet for a PC or Mac, rather than a stand-alone device. The HDMI input is not for video capture.
    I guess you're right. It seems like a dead end. The only thing that somewhat works is the Inogeni adapter. All this is just another monopolistic marketing model. But I digress.
    You are definitely attempting this project a few years too soon.

    The only 4K/UHD video capture device I found that might have the capabilities you want is the AJA Io 4K I/O for Thunderbolt 2, which costs $1700 at a discount. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1025891-REG/aja_io_4k_10_bit_4k_uhd_sd_i_o_tb_2.html. I say might because I am unsure whether 10-bit 4:4:4 4K/UHD capture at up to 30fps is available using HDMI on this device or only via SDI, and I saw no mention of computer hardware specs.

    Obviously you would need a computer with Thunderbolt 2 and a lot of processing power to losslessly compress the resulting data in real time.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 24th Jun 2015 at 13:11.
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  12. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Certainly USB 3.0 will not work. Doing the math, UHD1 @ 24FPS @ 30bits/pixel/frame (4:4:4 at 10bit) = 5.97Gb/sec. USB 3.0 theoretically maxes out at 5Gb/sec (and USB has consistently shown to usually only achieve 1/2-1/3 of that in the real world).

    So, any device that uses USB as any portion of a link in the 4k chain will not suffice. Thunderbolt, or a similar tech, is surely the way to go here.

    @newpball, don't know where you're getting that figure for the Shogun "bare bones". It lists for $1695.00 (with a few discounts showing at 1495). That's still at least $300-500 higher than you're claiming. Plus, there is no such thing as an "educational" Shogun. (The difference between the full and "bare bones" units applies to the existence or not of common Pro production-centric accessories, which can of course be gotten separately if necessary).

    I find it a bit humorous that one would attempt to handle a knowingly burdensome, complex & consumptive data stream using a device platform that is probably LEAST capable of handling it. Just in the name of portability, or what?

    No, you need beefy hardware!

    I'd suggest either the Shogun or the VideoDevices' Pix-E7.

    And I have to strongly disagree with you: ProRes Intermediate formats are NOT heavy on CPU. It may not be optimized for PCs (vs. Macs), but I've successfully edited a major multicam extended-event shoot and a corporate multicam interview shoot using ProRes as my intermediate, and that's with an older XP-based workstation! It's still quite workable. And as to the quality of 12bit 4:4:4 XQ ProRes being less than GV HQX? I'd have to see an A/B/X demo to believe that (there are probably some types of footage optimized for one, some types optimized for the other, and most would be too close to compare).

    Scott
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    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    @newpball, don't know where you're getting that figure for the Shogun "bare bones". It lists for $1695.00 (with a few discounts showing at 1495). That's still at least $300-500 higher than you're claiming. Plus, there is no such thing as an "educational" Shogun. (The difference between the full and "bare bones" units applies to the existence or not of common Pro production-centric accessories, which can of course be gotten separately if necessary).
    Shogun (bare bones - educational): $1271

    http://atomos.com/school/

    Also if you are a teacher (pretty much any acknowledged educational institution will do) you could check various retail sellers.

    One is Safe Harbor Computing: $1,271.25 (free shipping)

    http://www.sharbor.com/atomos-shogun-bare-bones-academic.html

    Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with Safe Harbor Computing



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    My mistake, there is a discount. Good find.

    But, the Atomos site does strictly specify "Student" (and expects school documentation to support it), so I don't think even teachers would qualify (regardless of how it is advertised by Safe Harbor). Niche market offering that most will not be able to take advantage of.

    Scott
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  15. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    You are definitely attempting this project a few years too soon.
    Most likely, I just can't help it!

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    The only 4K/UHD video capture device I found that might have the capabilities you want is the AJA Io 4K I/O for Thunderbolt 2, which costs $1700 at a discount. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1025891-REG/aja_io_4k_10_bit_4k_uhd_sd_i_o_tb_2.html. I say might because I am unsure whether 10-bit 4:4:4 4K/UHD capture at up to 30fps is available using HDMI on this device or only via SDI, and I saw no mention of computer hardware specs.
    Man, thanks, but that's not what I'm after. One of the reasons I'd prefer to use a tablet is the flexibility it gives me to run the software I want, and choose any codec, any ratio.

    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    Certainly USB 3.0 will not work. Doing the math, UHD1 @ 24FPS @ 30bits/pixel/frame (4:4:4 at 10bit) = 5.97Gb/sec. USB 3.0 theoretically maxes out at 5Gb/sec (and USB has consistently shown to usually only achieve 1/2-1/3 of that in the real world).

    So, any device that uses USB as any portion of a link in the 4k chain will not suffice. Thunderbolt, or a similar tech, is surely the way to go here.
    I see, this narrows the choices. Any hope if I can content with 10-bit 4:2:2?

    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    I find it a bit humorous that one would attempt to handle a knowingly burdensome, complex & consumptive data stream using a device platform that is probably LEAST capable of handling it. Just in the name of portability, or what?
    I like this (almost philosophical) question, and I humour myself too, no worries. I want to keep things to a minimum, exploit the hardware for the most it can give. Less is more, in a way. Having said that, as I understand that some things just can't be done as I thought, I have to either wait for a better solution later, or take the route of acquiring more. I think I'll just follow the first option and wait.

    Back to the topic, what are the minimum requirements for CPU/memory/graphics card for this job? Why can't a tablet nowadays, or in the near future, handle it? Assuming it provides HDMI/thunderbolt.

    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    And I have to strongly disagree with you: ProRes Intermediate formats are NOT heavy on CPU. It may not be optimized for PCs (vs. Macs), but I've successfully edited a major multicam extended-event shoot and a corporate multicam interview shoot using ProRes as my intermediate, and that's with an older XP-based workstation! It's still quite workable. And as to the quality of 12bit 4:4:4 XQ ProRes being less than GV HQX? I'd have to see an A/B/X demo to believe that (there are probably some types of footage optimized for one, some types optimized for the other, and most would be too close to compare).
    Which software were you using? I didn't say ProRes isn't workable, but in DaVinci Resolve I felt it was heavier than HQX and, while the optical quality differences were minor, ProRes was slightly noisy in the dark areas, whereas HQX was clean.
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    Originally Posted by Nurz View Post
    Back to the topic, what are the minimum requirements for CPU/memory/graphics card for this job? Why can't a tablet nowadays, or in the near future, handle it? Assuming it provides HDMI/thunderbolt.
    I just go to ask: you are willing to fork out over $3000 for a camera body and now you are trying to cheapskate on the external recording?

    It does not make any sense. Even if you can get a cheap patched up solution have you thought about reliability and durability?

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  17. Originally Posted by newpball View Post
    I just go to ask: you are willing to fork out over $3000 for a camera body and now you are trying to cheapskate on the external recording?
    Yes, because it's not so much about the money, it's about my minimalistic approach of things. Maybe I'll give up and buy an external box, in the end. But I can wait for a while, searching for all options. And spending 3000$ doesn't mean anything as regards on how to spend another 3000$.
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    If you want software/codec flexibility, go for a desktop OS + hardware. That way, you can pick much more capable cards, etc.

    UHD1 @ 24FPS 10bit 4:2:2 uncompressed (which is what HDMI always is) would = ~3.98Gb/sec. Still not workable for Real-World USB 3.0, even if it fits within the theoretical limit. 4:2:0 - MAYBE.

    Most of this difficulty has to do with extremely high end-to-end sustained throughput. You've got to look at EVERY link in the chain. Just do the math.
    For example, say you WERE able to find a transmission path/capture device attachment. What next? The CPU needs to do some MAJOR compression, in realtime (and current tablet CPUs aren't i7s or Xeons), and the storage needs to be able to handle the still-high bitrate of even the somewhat compressed intermediate format.
    Tablets don't have enough storage: a 32GB card (very common) would only be able to store ~10 minutes of the higher bitrate intermediate formats (usu. ~440Mbps, or ~55MB/sec). And even a UHS 3 speed class (30MB/sec max) wouldn't be able to handle the recording bitrate necessary for that kind of compression. Which means further compromise.
    Or you would need to pass-through to an external (SSD?) drive. But if you were going to do that, why not just get an external recorder?

    I was using PremierePro CS3. HQX might have been better, I just hadn't started using it at that point (it IS an option for me now).

    Scott
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    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    If you want software/codec flexibility, go for a desktop OS + hardware.
    It depends on circumstances and situations!

    Yes if you run some studio doing fixed single camera product videos. But if you run multiple cameras with changing sets, let alone being on location those Shoguns can definitely come handy.

    A Shogun does much more than being sa imple recording device. It is not only a decent monitor but it supports tagging, LUTs, genlock and a gazillion other things, it even de-squeezes anamorphic material, and it is made for the road!

    Last edited by newpball; 24th Jun 2015 at 19:10.
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    Got no complaints about the Shogun (can't wait to get one myself), but the OP specifically wanted "app & codec & bitrate flexibility". The Shogun doesn't really have that.

    Scott
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  21. Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    If you want software/codec flexibility, go for a desktop OS + hardware. That way, you can pick much more capable cards, etc.
    Well, that route maybe great for a studio but not for portability.

    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    The CPU needs to do some MAJOR compression, in realtime (and current tablet CPUs aren't i7s or Xeons), and the storage needs to be able to handle the still-high bitrate of even the somewhat compressed intermediate format.
    Actually there are a few tablets with i7, if my memory serves me right.

    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    Tablets don't have enough storage: a 32GB card (very common) would only be able to store ~10 minutes of the higher bitrate intermediate formats (usu. ~440Mbps, or ~55MB/sec). And even a UHS 3 speed class (30MB/sec max) wouldn't be able to handle the recording bitrate necessary for that kind of compression. Which means further compromise.
    Or you would need to pass-through to an external (SSD?) drive. But if you were going to do that, why not just get an external recorder?
    Because I can just put a 500gb SSD inside the tablet. No need to compromise to that end.

    Originally Posted by newpball View Post
    The Shoguns do much more that being simple recording devices.
    Exactly, that's my whole point and challenge. A device to rule them all! A tablet for previewing/recording on location, and after a few hours of usage, this tablet can also be hot enough to make you coffee.

    Generally, I agree, a tablet is not a common solution. I only want to find out how feasible it is.
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    This guy is pretty minimum and does 4:4:4

    AJA Ki Pro Quad Solid State 4K Recorder - Sets you back about $3k

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=857190&gclid=CjwKEAjwqqmsBRDGy_...=REG&A=details

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    Originally Posted by Nurz View Post
    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    The CPU needs to do some MAJOR compression, in realtime (and current tablet CPUs aren't i7s or Xeons), and the storage needs to be able to handle the still-high bitrate of even the somewhat compressed intermediate format.
    Actually there are a few tablets with i7, if my memory serves me right.
    Yes, there are tablets with i7 CPUs, but they have only two physical cores. The desktop i7 CPUs have 4 or 6 or 8 physical cores. Hence there is a tremendous difference in processing power between the two types of computers with software that is multi-threaded.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 24th Jun 2015 at 20:39. Reason: Forgot about 8-core Haswell-E i7
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    The tablets with i7s are like the Surface Pro and similar devices. They basically are fast laptops that also have touch-screen capability. Not really necessarily what I would call a tablet, but I guess one should expect there to be some overlap. In that case, they (hopefully) would also have high-speed external ports, such as Thunderbolt. Yet the SurfacePro i7 does NOT.

    Takes you back to square one...

    Scott
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  25. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Yes, there are tablets with i7 CPUs, but they have only two physical cores. The desktop i7 CPUs have 4 or 6 or 8 physical cores. Hence there is a tremendous difference in processing power between the two types of computers with software that is multi-threaded.
    I understand, but do I really need the extra power? That's what I want to know. Surface 3 has i7-4650U, and Cintiq 2 has the newer i7-5557U. Are four i7 cores essential for flawless recording? How much is enough?

    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    Takes you back to square one...
    Indeed it does... It was about time manufactures decided to release i7 tablets. Cintiq 2 is the closest I could find to my needs. Damn, it even incorporates HDMI input - albeit not suitable for devices other than PCs/Macs, as mentioned. I'll wait a bit, I believe it's worth it.
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    Originally Posted by Nurz View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Yes, there are tablets with i7 CPUs, but they have only two physical cores. The desktop i7 CPUs have 4 or 6 or 8 physical cores. Hence there is a tremendous difference in processing power between the two types of computers with software that is multi-threaded.
    I understand, but do I really need the extra power? That's what I want to know. Surface 3 has i7-4650U, and Cintiq 2 has the newer i7-5557U. Are four i7 cores essential for flawless recording? How much is enough?
    Two cores with hyperthreading certainly isn't enough when you are trying to losslessly encode 5.97Gb/sec worth of video data using software. A 4 core i7 CPU might still struggle with losslessly compressing that much data and running the OS.

    Originally Posted by Nurz View Post
    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    Takes you back to square one...
    Indeed it does... It was about time manufactures decided to release i7 tablets. Cintiq 2 is the closest I could find to my needs. Damn, it even incorporates HDMI input - albeit not suitable for devices other than PCs/Macs, as mentioned. I'll wait a bit, I believe it's worth it.
    Yes, but since there are only two cores, the processing power of an i7 tablet is more like that of a fast i3 desktop, or maybe a slowish i5 desktop. They do have better on-CPU graphics than an i3 or i5.

    You are going wait for a tablet a that comes equipped with a built-in HDMI capture device suitable for lossless encoding? Sorry, but that that is not going to happen. For the forseeable future, tablets are going to be general purpose computers suitable for office work, browsing the Internet, and media consumption, not specialized systems for 4K video capture.

    You need a 4K/UHD recorder if you want highly portable video capture. They have a CPU, but the puny CPU they have is not doing any encoding, and can't run an OS like Windows. Encoding is done with a specialized chip, not software, which is why the choice of recording formats is very limited.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 25th Jun 2015 at 11:14. Reason: punctuation
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  27. @usually_quiet
    Eh, don't make me start fundraising for the ultimate tablet, hahaha! Nevertheless, that was informative.

    Guys, thanks for all the time and kind heart to help. Before posting here, I asked on another forum, specialised in photographic equipment, and had no response. Maybe they didn't care, or thought that wasn't going to work. Well, maybe it's not going to work today or in the near future alright but, although I can't help but being a bit skeptical for the options in the long run, you've helped me understand why. Cheers.
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