What bitrate to rec standard VHS?

[jsmithepa]

Apologies, this answer probly somewhere here but too much other extraneous info, I already spent a day...

So... trying to VHS -> DVD

Equipment: Mitsubishi 4-head standard VCR, composite out.

Capture: Hauppauge capable of 12 mbit/sec. 720x480.

Source: Commercial VHS

WHAT OPTIMUM BITRATE SHALL I CAPTURE this given the equipment above? Currently only viewing on SDTV but like everybody else will be moving up to HDTV later this year.

TIA.

[mats.hogberg]

Capture at the bitrate that will enable you to fit your recording to your media.
Without knowing either, the q can't be answered. As DVD is SD, it won't make any difference if you watch it on SDTV or HDTV.
The only circumstance that would justify capturing at max bitrate, would be if you plan on/have to filter the captured video (thus having to reencode it).

/Mats

[jg0001]

Well, I can tell you this... there's little real reason to capture ABOVE *edit* 8000 kbit/sec (8 mbit/sec) if you are capturing direct to MPEG2 with the intent of burning to DVD. 8mbit for video + linear PCM stereo audio will put you near the max bit rate of the DVD standard and at the upper limit of what many programs have as a choice. 6mbit will give you considerably more time, and will not likely look much worse than 8mbit. Don't be too quick to skimp on audio bit-rate, however. Linear PCM audio takes up a lot of space, so if you can do dolby digital or compressed MP2 (yeah 2) you'll save some space, but just use the maximum bitrate available...

[themaster1]

Apologies, this answer probly somewhere here but too much other extraneous info, I already spent a day...

So... trying to VHS -> DVD

Equipment: [s:58ec0c40b6]Mitsubishi 4-head standard VCR, composite out. [/s:58ec0c40b6] (bad)

Capture: Hauppauge capable of 12 mbit/sec. 720x480. [color=green](good)[/colo]

Source: Commercial VHS (good)

and to answer your question ->dvd resolution

[themaster1]

Apologies, this answer probly somewhere here but too much other extraneous info, I already spent a day...

So... trying to VHS -> DVD

Equipment: [s:06a9ff77d8]Mitsubishi 4-head standard VCR, composite out. [/s:06a9ff77d8] (bad)

Capture: Hauppauge capable of 12 mbit/sec. 720x480. (good)

Source: Commercial VHS (good)

and to answer your question ->dvd resolution

[jagabo]

You can configure the Hauppauge card to capture up to 15,000 kbps. You have to create your own template though.

[lordsmurf]

Either 352x480 @ 4000k bitrate or 720x480 @ 8000k bitrate. Easy as that.

All the other answers you're getting here are weird (not in DVD spec, assume filtering, complaints about VCR, etc).

[jagabo]

Yes, 12,000 and 15,000 kbps aren't legal for DVD. Those would be for video that is going to go through a lot of processing before burning to DVD.

[lordsmurf]

More compression may be needed, bitrate-wise, depending on the length of the recording, and the size of the blank, and the desired amount to stick on a disc.

To fit 2 hours at 720x480 on a single-layer disc, 5000-5500 VBR is what must be used. Nothing higher. Just as an example.

[mats.hogberg]

Unfortunately VBR isn't (AFAIK) an option with the realtime mpg hardware encoder in the Hauppauge cards, so that's out.

/Mats

[jagabo]

Hauppauge cards can do single pass VBR. You can set the average and the max (peak) bitrates. It's not as accurate as a 2-pass VBR or course.

[jsmithepa]

8 mbit it is. Yes I like to retain the option to re-encode. Audio bitrate is maxed out, after all, it's a concert.

Thanks guys!

[ron spencer]

I would copy as DV to hard drive...I do this with ADVC100....I hate real time encoding to MPEG-II, unless it is via my Pioneer set-top DVD recorder. From DV I use. 720x480 VBR average 6000 max 8000, with vbr bias of 30, dolby digial AC-3 rate of 192.

perfect

[jg0001]

re: the DV idea... I tried this myself a few times and it was just a major PITA... quality was rarely much better anyway than just hardware encoded MPEG2, sad to say, and as a process, it takes a many times longer to complete.

If by "editing" all you are really doing is "cutting", then recording to MPEG2 in the first place is just fine.

[ron spencer]

honestly the DV route is so much better if you configure your encoder....I have used those Hauppage cards and they just do not do the same job as CCE Basic or HC. Plus you get a much better archival format to store on hard drive. I have yet to see a sub-$1000 card that does real-time encoding that I like. I know it can be a pain, but you are much better off in the long run.

[Tom Saurus]

jsmithpa: Just out of curiousity are you going to leave these captures in mpeg2 format to play on the standard type of dvd player or do have a yearning to make them in XVid or Divx files. If you have alot of tapes you might want to think about doing so. In some cases you can have 4 or 5 fairly decent movies on one disc that you can watch on your television with a divx ultra player. If that is the case your 12,000 bit rate would be a good idea, because it might give you a better looking file to convert to another format. If this isn't the case the bitrate should be between 6000-8000 as the other posters have adviced you.

[lordsmurf]

DV has it's own compression flaws too, so it's not necessarily better image quality.

[ron spencer]

dv is far better than mpeg-2...you know that lordsmurf

[jagabo]

MPEG2 at 29 mbps VBR can be better than DV.

[lordsmurf]

DV is not better than MPEG-2, it's just different. Both have flaws.

[ron spencer]

I would rather have dv than mgeg2 for archiving anyday....I can FULLY edit, encode to HD if I want....mpeg-2 does not . More flexibilty

[jagabo]

You can fully edit MPEG2 if you have the right tools. You may have to reencode an entire GOP if you cut or change a frame. It's even possible to have all I frames if want. Of course, Hauppauge cards can't produce bitrates over 15 mpbs or all I frame MPEG.

[ron spencer]

you can't really edit....i.e....add nice transitions, add other video etc....cut out commercials, yes...but mpeg2 is not for archiving...what if you want to reencode the whole thing to HD....just a mess....

If you are going to spend the time and effort to do something right, DV makes the only sense.....

[SmokieStover]

VHS is VHS. It could never be converted to HD....the resolution isn't there.

The Hauppauge PVR 250 does indeed do hardware VBR encoding. The "DVD Long Play" Profile(NTSC 720 X 480) has a VBR of 4800 kps with a peak bitrate of 6400 kps. Using the default audio bitrate of 384 with both title and chapter menus, this profile permits 1 hr and 59 minutes of video on a single layer +R DVD blank. The resultant quality is so close to the original VHS tape that I can't imagine ever wanting to capture in DV AVI and encode to MPG2; most basic filtering and encoding to same VBR on my basic PC takes 3 hours for each hour of capture....and for what? Maybe a 5% increase in video quality! NO THANKS!

A VBR of 4600 with a peak of 6600 = an extra 5 minutes, and more with a re-encode of the audio in TDA2 to AC3 at 224 kps.

The "DVD Standard Play" profile = 90 minutes per blank. Also useful when splitting longer tapes to two blanks.

A VBR of 6000 with a peak of 8000 adds another 4 to 5 minutes to the DVD Standard Play profile.

I recently did a Bond tape for a relative that ran 2 hrs and 13 minutes. She just had to have it one disk...Why?....I knew better than to ask. Used VBR 4100, peak 6100, audio 384. Image Burn said I used 93% of the +R disk. I watched the entire thing and was surprised at how well it looked. She was real happy with it!

[ron spencer]

then you have no idea what you are doing; you can convert vhs to HD, with a good capture device such as canopus advc100, which is 720x480....works ok actually....sorry, but avisynth and virtualdub, amoung other such programs, can really fix up VHS stuff....if you have no care for this, then it is garbage in garbage out...simple as that.

[SmokieStover]

then you have no idea what you are doing; you can convert vhs to HD, with a good capture device such as canopus advc100, which is 720x480....works ok actually....sorry, but avisynth and virtualdub, amoung other such programs, can really fix up VHS stuff....if you have no care for this, then it is garbage in garbage out...simple as that.

I may not know what I'm doing, but I can certainly see the results....visual acuity is 20/15, both eyes, uncorrected. Gee, I wish my ears were half as good.

[Wile_E]

720x480 is not HD(High Definition). It is SD (Standard Definition).

[olyteddy]

I would copy as DV to hard drive...I do this with ADVC100....I hate real time encoding to MPEG-II, unless it is via my Pioneer set-top DVD recorder. From DV I use. 720x480 VBR average 6000 max 8000, with vbr bias of 30, dolby digial AC-3 rate of 192.

perfect

Out of curiousity, what encoder chip does your Pioneer use that would make it superior to the Conextant used by Hauppauge?

[dadrab]

you can't really edit....i.e....add nice transitions, add other video etc....cut out commercials, yes...but mpeg2 is not for archiving...

Ummm...I beg to differ. I caputure everything with a PVR-350.

I've done successful editing and transitions that look pretty damn good when burned to DVD. You just need the correct tools.

As for MPEG2 being unarchival, well, I beg to differ on that point too. I consider DVDs to be archival and the standard DVD film format is...

...get ready now...

...here it comes...



...MPEG2.

I don't have any qualms with DV, mind you, but don't go scaring inexperienced folks off from MPEG2.

[lordsmurf]

you can't really edit....i.e....add nice transitions, add other video etc....cut out commercials, yes...but mpeg2 is not for archiving...what if you want to reencode the whole thing to HD....just a mess....
If you are going to spend the time and effort to do something right, DV makes the only sense.....

Not at all accurate. Many industry editing standards are based upon MPEG-2. There are many options people fail to understand, such as I-frame only, high bitrates, and other profiles beyond MP@ML. Consumer DV25 4:1:1 NTSC actually butchers red and green values more than MPEG-2 does. This idea that DV is superior is flat wrong.

At any rate, ya'll are all giving stupid answers to the original poster. All this person needs is a good capture. A minimum of 352x480 @ 3000k (VBR, with max 5500k) is needed. You can go up to 720x480 @ 8000k (CBR) if it suits your fancy, but the gains are minimal, and all you really do, considering ALL aspects, is fill a disc with more data (with minimal to zero gains in quality).

The other consideration is, speaking of HDTV, buying a good one. Get one with filters, not the $500 Walmart special. A great many of those televisions out there are of rather poor image quality.