Since when Full frame 3D MKVs are viable ?

[XAKEP]

I am under a rock or what ? Some time back I aksed precise question. I want my 3D ISO to be ripped in MKV with 1080p (full frame) in each eye and 7.1 HD (Like TrueHD) as sound track. All I heard explanation on why at the moment it's impossible, something about bit-streaming and MKV not compatible etc etc ... Today I BY MISTAKE created a full frame 3D MKV for my library and resolution became 3840 x 800 (so 1920 x 2 + 800) and I Was like damn .... all this time for nothing .... and just for a hack of it I opened my PowerDVD 14 Ultra and press played. Not only PowerDVD 14 automatically switched my TV in to 3D mode (no need to press 3D button on TV Remote and select sbs anymore) but I see perfect BluRay 1080p in each eye picture. What happen ? Was this always like this or something happened ? Because for very long time I've been collecting 3D MKV with half resolution. I mean I am happy for my new "discovery" but now I need to rerip all ISOs, most I don;t have anymore cause of space.

I guess my question / comment with all this is this. Quality is 100% better I can see it, audio same cause I've always had HD audio. But something still don't ""feel" quite the same when I am watching. Is this because it's still re ripped BluRay and no longer pure master copy but H.264 RIP ? What I usually do I go mediainfo on M2TS file and look in maximum overall bit rate and set same bit in my rip to maintain same quality. So any comments on that ? And another thing I am using DVDfab for all rips and now they have H.265 , may be totally on time because I have to re rip everything ? What you think on that BD ISO to Full Frame 3D MKV with H.265. I see right now only 1 pass is allowed but BETA of H.265 allows 2 pass , so very soon we'll have it as well , then I guess I'll be using H265 for all RIPS.


Anyhow, any comments on Full Frame that somehow I totally miss and then this new H.265 for my rips ?

Thanks !

P.S.

This is my Full Frame MKV I am referring to.

Complete name : W:\VIDEOS\Video\PROMETHEUS_3D\PROMETHEUS.Title800. mkv
Format : Matroska
Format version : Version 2
File size : 38.9 GiB
Duration : 2h 3mn
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 45.0 Mbps
Movie name : PROMETHEUS.Title800
Encoded date : UTC 2014-10-10 09:45:50
Writing application : DVDFab 9.1.6.8
Writing library : libebml v0.7.8 + libmatroska v0.8.1

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Main@L5.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Codec ID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration : 2h 3mn
Nominal bit rate : 40.0 Mbps
Width : 3 840 pixels
Height : 800 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 4.800
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.543
Writing library : x264 core 142
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=1 / deblock=1:-1:-1 / analyse=0x1:0 / me=hex / subme=5 / psy=0 / mixed_ref=0 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=0 / 8x8dct=0 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=0 / threads=12 / lookahead_threads=3 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=2 / b_pyramid=0 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=0 / keyint=24 / keyint_min=13 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc=2pass / mbtree=0 / bitrate=40000 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / ip_ratio=1.40 / pb_ratio=1.30 / aq=1:1.00
Default : Yes
Forced : No
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709

Audio
ID : 2
Format : DTS
Format/Info : Digital Theater Systems
Format profile : MA / Core
Mode : 16
Format settings, Endianness : Big
Codec ID : A_DTS
Duration : 2h 3mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : Unknown / 1 509 Kbps
Channel(s) : 8 channels / 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, Back: L R, LFE / Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 24 bits
Compression mode : Lossless / Lossy
Language : English
Default : Yes
Forced : No

[ndjamena]

All I heard explanation on why at the moment it's impossible, something about bit-streaming and MKV not compatible etc etc

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/359629-BluRay-3D-ripping-%28Full-Frame-rip-and-play...25#post2277325

Lot's of things can change in a year...

[Cornucopia]

Couple of things at play here...

#1 MKV as a format is theoretically neither more nor less compatible than any other container format. What might have (and often actually did) made it different in the past was that it is an open, grass-roots format and not an industry-promoted format, so it required enough consumer support to reach a critical mass for it to be included in support on a hardware level (unlike the industry-led formats which already have their promoters & negotiators). This wasn't the case a year or 2 ago, but is occurring now. However, MKV use in 3D was hampered by the fact that the spec for formatting/labeling 3D content was changed. Hardware vendors do NOT want to have to accommodate a number of non-compatible variant forks, so this had to settle itself out first. Now, most 3D MKVs do use the current up-to-date designations.

#2 FullSbS has always been "viable", to the extent that the playback chain/system was able to accommodate it's increased requirements. Many older encoders have limits on resolution (either horizontal or vertical). Since horizontal is usually the wider of the 2, FullSbS often pushes against the limit of what can be encoded or decoded. With the rise of 4k material, both encoders and decoders are being upgraded to fully accommodate larger frame sizes overall, to the benefit of Full Rez Stereo3D. Also, FullSbS (and FullTaB) use twice as much bandwidth in the display pipeline (and need to use twice as much bitrate to accommodate the full quality). I don't know about YOUR system, but lots of systems were NOT set up to support that kind of burden. Those are what's known as non-Frame-compatible, because they won't fit within the usual bandwidth, etc. requirements of a traditional 2D imaging system. Things are always easier if you are ONLY going PC->vidcard->monitor, so this has been possible there for a while, but NOT possible if you were using hardware players or a standard TV display. In fact, with very few exceptions, they still are NOT possible with standard 3DTV displays.

#3 Apps that correctly encoded MKV 3D, and apps that correctly decoded/formatted them (particularly with regard to HDMI 3D SEI messaging) were not perfected a year and a half ago, so that is another thing that has changed recently.

#4 What you have got there is STILL not the full quality of a 3DBD, because you are not retaining the original MVC encoding. If you were, it would look something like this:

Video
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Stereo High@L4.1 / High@L4.1
MultiView_Count : 2
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive

Notice the sections in bold.

Your app is still decoding the MVC and re-encoding to the FullSbS AVC, which means quality loss. Maybe not a lot, but enough. Plus, unlike most regular 2D images, your eyes are actually MORE discerning of differences between the 2 views of a stereo3D image, mainly because that is usually the technique by which it decides whether it is an item of binocular parallax importance or not. And it is extremely unlikely that, with the exception of an special encoder that is "3D-aware", the random way in which it encodes 2 slightly different viewpoints will vary the same way for BOTH viewpoints, leading one viewpoint to be different enough from the other to shimmer, like a "dimensional portal rift" (sorry, have been watching Haven a lot lately ).

So it is no wonder that you notice a quality difference between your original and your current encode, even if the current encode is tons better than it used to be.

#5 You also are misunderstanding the bitrate requirements somewhat. If a single 2D HD AVC image stream requires 1x a particular expected bandwidth/bitrate (say 35Mbps), an MVC encoding of a 2-image stereo3D version of the same title ought to require ~1.3x - 1.55x the same bandwidth in order to give you the equivalent quality in both eyes (so at 1.5x that would mean a bitrate of 52.5Mbps). BUT, a non-MVC encoding is less efficient, so a FullSbS or FullTaB AVC encoding of the 2-image stereo3D stream would be 2x the bitrate (aka 70Mbps) for equivalent quality. This is exactly why 3DBD does NOT use "simulcasting" (the term they use for having 2 independent stream views), it is too bandwidth intensive. So, unless your FullSbS is encoding to the equivalent of 2x the 2D (single view) bitrate, you are encoding too LOW to retain the most quality. Note also, that your cropping business has now required that you re-encode your left view image as well as your right, even though it could have been left un-re-encoded if you hadn't cropped (because the L view = standard AVC portion of the MVC encoding).

Scott

[XAKEP]

AHA !!! I think I understand all that. Thick head it'll come to me but all this I guess gives me a hint "don't do MKVs yet stick with 3DBD ISO" is that fare assessment ? Because my goal is to get 100% quality or at list you know not half , I mean it I get 90% quality with like 50% size it's totally cool (I guess 50% size with 90% quality is wishful thinking) but you see what I am saying. I am trying to get maximum quality without having to use 40+gb on each movie. For now only space saving technique I have is to have ISOs with no menus, extras and only 1 HD English track. So I guess for now I'll stick with ISOs sad. If you put a number what I am getting out of original ISO with info I provided, quality wise. Like if ISO is 100% in quality what my MKV is ? Also when ripping 2D I can select copy source and it only takes 10 minutes to create MKV so I am thinking when I do it that way it's 100% quality for my 2D RIPS correct ? Now is it somehow possible to use same "source copy" and then "montage" left and right "copy source" images in to one ? OR too much work and just sticfk with ISOs for now ?

[Cornucopia]

Let's back up and look at the big picture:

You have a title that is 2 hours long.
An uncompressed 1080p24 YUV 4:2:2 master of it in 2D would be ~760Mbps * 2hours = ~668GB. In stereo3D, it would be 2x, or 1336GB (aka 1.3TB). Both are 95% quality (100% would be a 2k RGB4:4:4 or similar).

Let's say your average 2hour 2D feature on Blu-ray is ~27.5GB. This means it is compressed 668/27.5 = 24:1, yet luckily it is retaining, say, 70% of the original quality. Your same average feature in MVC stereo3D is 41.25GB (=1.5x * 27.5). That is 1336/41.25=32:1, yet still retaining ~66%.
If those had been done simulcasted (aka 2 independent fullHD AVC streams) instead of MVC-compressed, for them to maintain the same quality, they would have worked out to the same 24:1 in each of the 2 views, giving you 1336GB/24=~55.7GB retaining the 70% quality.

Those are YOUR starting points. As you can see, your "ISO" is already way down from 100% quality.

If you re-encode at ALL you are losing more quality. If you crop at all, you have to re-encode. If you reformat/resize, you have to re-encode. If you "montage" you are re-encoding.

Your 50% size idea is re-encoding using either FullSbS or HalfSbS, and this is (ought) to be compared to the simulcast stereo3D not the MVC, so it works out to 27.5 again, or 48:1 compression (and using an already compressed master, decoded & re-formatted/resized), so you'll be lucky if your are getting 75% of your source (which itself is only 70%), so that means 70% * 75% = 52% quality from the master. By going HalfSbS instead of FullSbS, you are trading loss of resolution quality for an increase in bitrate headroom quality (so fuzzier, but less artifacts).

If your 2D rips are 27.5GB (main movie only) on-disc, and ~27.5GB in the MKV, then, clearly, they are "lossless rips". This doesn't mean 100% of master quality, but at least it means 100% of your ISO source quality. What has happened is just:
1. Decrypt
2. Rip movie to HDD
3. Re-mux originally-on-disc streams into MKV container

And that's it.

This is almost NEVER what happens when you "rip" a stereo3D feature, because you probably never leave the source alone as an MVC encode (where the files originally resided in the M2TS + SSIF containers) even if you leave the audio alone. Again, unless you are getting something like what showed in my #4 example above in post #3, you AREN'T getting MVC, which means you MUST be re-encoding (and concurrently losing quality). I can't be absolutely sure, but I could make an educated guess and say that there are probably NO apps that do a movie-only rip of stereo3D material and leave the MVC alone. So, the only real way to do so (and retain full quality for 3D) is still, currently, to rip the full ISO. Even if that means 40+GB.
Note that even going FullSbS and providing equivalent simulcast bitrates of the 2D version (aka 2x), giving you 55.7GB is still not going to keep your original ISO quality, because your are re-formatting/resizing (even if you didn't crop, which you've usually done), so there is some additional loss down say ~87% from your 70% source = 60.9% of master.

Whether this is acceptable to YOU or not is your own call. I myself wouldn't want to re-encode, so I'd leave the full ISO, but I'm not very concerned about using up space, either. Especially with 2TB drives at <$80USD.

Scott

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Tried to reference Master as Red, ISO Source as Blue and Final as Green to help keep things clear.